AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by electricron

You have a great point. One could look at the cheaper regional rail CapMetro is building and about to put into service as the means to restore the full sales tax revenues.

CM HAS the full sales tax revenue.

To design an efficient Intermodal Transit Center, one needs to know before designing and building it all the anticipated modes that will be using it. Which explains why it wasn't included with the initial regional rail build. But it can be easily added in the future when other modal plans are further developed.

Intermodal centers are a load of crap. Daily commuters are incredibly turned off by transfers of ANY type, even "good rail" to "good rail", as evidenced by the fact that six billion has been invested to bring the LIRR closer to more offices in Manhattan despite the fact that it already had really good transfer options to the subway.

And Austin's parking is cheap, and our traffic is nowhere near as bad. We're not competing against a much slower drive to a parking space that costs Manhattan prices. We're competing against a drive that takes roughly as long as the 2000 LRT route would have taken to get straight in - the commuter rail plus shuttle trip will actually be quite a bit slower than the drive for most people on most days.

Any time you hear people waxing ecstatic about transfers, especially dressed up in the trendy "intermodal" garbage, beware.

[M1EK]

In case anybody is falling for the garbage that this commuter rail station is so close to everything that people will really be walking to their offices:

Here's how the PRO-COMMUTER-RAIL people saw the station at the Convention Center. Note the word "DOWNTOWN" on the shuttle-bus. Why is that, if they actually thought most people would walk to their offices from the train?



Here's CM's downtown shuttle map, from a February presentation.



And here's what the route looks like, overlaid on an aerial. Yellow is commuter rail; green is 2000 LRT; red is the original CM streetcar shared-lane proposal (except I accidentally drew the western spur on 5th instead of 4th) and basically the 2008 TWG line.



Any questions?

[alexjon]

So, when are they building LRT?

[electricron]

Some more You Tube videos of the NJT river line on city streets:

Pulling into Camden's Aquarium - like a streetcar, even stopping for a red light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p68jYghyY9g

From Aquarium to Rutgers - like a streetcar again, making 90 degree curves in city streets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPD6LOgL8eU

Rutgers to Walter Rand - like a streetcar again, making 90 degree curves in city streets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8r_7_sxyXI

Burlington South to Burlingtown Town Centre - RR ROW to city streets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPSupIucgw

Leaving Burlington Town Centre - City streets to RR ROW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT2-4F-5XQQ

The idea that DMUs can't run down city streets is not true, as these videos show they can and do many times a day.
While it's true CapMetro Stadler DMUs can't make as tight a turn as NJT Stadler DMUs, they still can run down city streets if they don't have to make as sharp a turn. In Burlington N.J. the trains were in dedicated ROW, in Camden N.J. the trains were in shared ROW with other street traffic.

Running down Austin's 4th street, on a straight street, is certaily within the capability of CapMetro's Stadler DMUs.

Commuters make transfers all the time, to travel from line to line or from one mode of transit to another, if the need arises. It's impossible to design a transit system that doesn't need transfers if the system is larger than one line. Even if CapMetro was able to build the 2000 light rail plan, any expansion in a different direction like to Pflugerville would have required a second or branch line. Pflugerville to Leander would have required a transfer.

Look at this Dart rail map.

One has to transfer from one line to another, or be stuck traveling on just that one line. Making a transfer connects you to more destinations.
It's impossible to place all destinations on just one line.

On that Dart map, there's three ITC, one in both downtown Dallas and downtown Fort Worth, and one at the Centerpoint Station for DFW Airport. Each rail station on every line can be considered a transfer point, between trains and buses, cars, bikes, vans, and pedestrians.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by alexjon

So, when are they building LRT?

When CapMetro finds the funding, and definitely after another election.
Since light rail is much more expensive than regional rail, with the requirement to need federal funds, at best 12 years from now. It takes 10 years to go through the AA,PA, DEIS, FEIS process to get federal funds today just to start construction. Construction lasts at least 2 years.

[M1EK]

electricron, once again, you're misleading people while hiding behind anonymity.

1. DART didn't build their starter line to the edge of downtown and make essentially all passengers transfer to shuttle buses to get to work. Period. To equate the Austin situation with Dallas is to willfully confuse people - you know damn well that the first line in Dallas relied on walking traffic on the office end of the trip, as has every other successful rail start in this country. NOBODY has succeeded when their first shot at a line required that everybody schlep themselves onto a shuttle bus at the office end of the trip.

2. In New Jersey, they condemned corners of downtown blocks to allow those DMUs to make those turns.

I think at this point, it's incumbent upon yourself to either stop posting stuff that's misleading at best or lies at worst, or at a bare minimum, identify yourself.

[alexjon]

Regional rail, blah blah blah...

I prefer LRT over Regional Rail, even though my trips in Portland were often Bus-Train-Train. Regional rail's costs are often expenses, whereas you can justify LRT as an investment (scalable, not the FRA's whipping boy, etc.).

I pondered the "NOBODY WILL TRANSFER UNLESS IT IS CAR-TRAIN!" thing for a bit and looking back, I kinda question it.

http://ride.trimet.org
Enter:
4640 SW 142nd, Beaverton, OR - Departure
Argyle & Columbia, Portland, OR - Arrival

It was seamless, even the bus portion. It may, however, have something to do with TriMet's amazing trip planner which is practically flawless. King County Metro's trip planner is a pain in the rear (which is why I'm glad I live so close to downtown I can see the top 600' of the Columbia Center), but TriMet's is superb.

Oh god, I suddenly miss TriMet so much.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by alexjon

I prefer LRT over Regional Rail, even though my trips in Portland were often Bus-Train-Train. Regional rail's costs are often expenses, whereas you can justify LRT as an investment (scalable, not the FRA's whipping boy, etc.).

I pondered the "NOBODY WILL TRANSFER UNLESS IT IS CAR-TRAIN!" thing for a bit and looking back, I kinda question it.

http://ride.trimet.org
Enter:
4640 SW 142nd, Beaverton, OR - Departure
Argyle & Columbia, Portland, OR - Arrival

It was seamless, even the bus portion. It may, however, have something to do with TriMet's amazing trip planner which is practically flawless. King County Metro's trip planner is a pain in the rear (which is why I'm glad I live so close to downtown I can see the top 600' of the Columbia Center), but TriMet's is superb.

Oh god, I suddenly miss TriMet so much.

TriMet is half the reason I may move to Portland!

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

TriMet is half the reason I may move to Portland!

With the exception of rush hour buses in the SE, Trimet is awesome. It's the Tarzan of transit systems, swinging from bus to train to bus with ease.

[Blakesalot!]

From CM's MetroBlog:

[electricron]

Originally Posted by M1EK

electricron, once again, you're misleading people while hiding behind anonymity.

1. DART didn't build their starter line to the edge of downtown and make essentially all passengers transfer to shuttle buses to get to work. Period. To equate the Austin situation with Dallas is to willfully confuse people - you know damn well that the first line in Dallas relied on walking traffic on the office end of the trip, as has every other successful rail start in this country. NOBODY has succeeded when their first shot at a line required that everybody schlep themselves onto a shuttle bus at the office end of the trip.

2. In New Jersey, they condemned corners of downtown blocks to allow those DMUs to make those turns.

I think at this point, it's incumbent upon yourself to either stop posting stuff that's misleading at best or lies at worst, or at a bare minimum, identify yourself.

Yes, Dart didn't force riders to take the bus, but they encouraged it at both ends of the ride. That's why a train ticket is accepted on any bus.
Most initially drove up to 20 miles to the train station, then rode the train 5 miles into downtown. Dart assumes passengers will walk a half mile to train stations. Are Texans in Austin lazier than Texans in Dallas? Why confuse everyone with the one-eight mile radius from the train stations drawing? Who's misleading whom?
NJT didn't condemned buildings at every corner in downtown Camden, as anyone can see watching the vdeos, there's very old buildings on most of the corners. Besides, that point isn't a point, because CapMetro isn't going to have to make those sharp turns in downtown Austin with the Stadler DMU trains. The point I've tried to make is that there's no problem operating these trains on city streets, as long as the streets are fairly straight. By the way, 4th Street is straight as an arrow. So is Guadalupe, with just a few curves these trains can make.

[427MM]

Wow, what a heated debate. Personally, I feel that the Red Line is simply a foot in the door and will do fine. What excites me are all the plans that follow. At this point, anyone who feels that simply adding more roads or lane miles to existing roads is dead wrong. For the sake of our environment and for our community I hope that nearly every ballot (in compliance with the laws) from here on out has some kind of rail component on it. One of my favorite cities in the world is Munich, Germany. Munich is famous for having myriad kinds of rail systems that work beautifully as a whole. Imagine streetcars coming by the convention center and picking up the suburbanites who just came in on the Red Line and have already finished the morning paper. Ah, good times.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by electricron

Yes, Dart didn't force riders to take the bus, but they encouraged it at both ends of the ride. That's why a train ticket is accepted on any bus.
Most initially drove up to 20 miles to the train station, then rode the train 5 miles into downtown. Dart assumes passengers will walk a half mile to train stations. Are Texans in Austin lazier than Texans in Dallas? Why confuse everyone with the one-eight mile radius from the train stations drawing? Who's misleading whom?
NJT didn't condemned buildings at every corner in downtown Camden, as anyone can see watching the vdeos, there's very old buildings on most of the corners. Besides, that point isn't a point, because CapMetro isn't going to have to make those sharp turns in downtown Austin with the Stadler DMU trains. The point I've tried to make is that there's no problem operating these trains on city streets, as long as the streets are fairly straight. By the way, 4th Street is straight as an arrow. So is Guadalupe, with just a few curves these trains can make.

You're absolutely full of crap here.

1. DART used the same 1/4 mile rule when planning their first line as everybody else does.

2. In NJ, they did, indeed, condemn corners downtown to run their trains. Here's just one picture showing it quite clearly:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v...1563&encType=1

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by 427MM

Wow, what a heated debate. Personally, I feel that the Red Line is simply a foot in the door and will do fine. What excites me are all the plans that follow. At this point, anyone who feels that simply adding more roads or lane miles to existing roads is dead wrong. For the sake of our environment and for our community I hope that nearly every ballot (in compliance with the laws) from here on out has some kind of rail component on it. One of my favorite cities in the world is Munich, Germany. Munich is famous for having myriad kinds of rail systems that work beautifully as a whole. Imagine streetcars coming by the convention center and picking up the suburbanites who just came in on the Red Line and have already finished the morning paper. Ah, good times.

The same suburbanites who won't take an excellent, comfortable, express bus ride straight to their office today, you mean? Those people are the ones you expect to take not one, but TWO transit rides to get where they're going?

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by electricron

Yes, Dart didn't force riders to take the bus, but they encouraged it at both ends of the ride. That's why a train ticket is accepted on any bus.
Most initially drove up to 20 miles to the train station, then rode the train 5 miles into downtown. Dart assumes passengers will walk a half mile to train stations. Are Texans in Austin lazier than Texans in Dallas? Why confuse everyone with the one-eight mile radius from the train stations drawing? Who's misleading whom?
NJT didn't condemned buildings at every corner in downtown Camden, as anyone can see watching the vdeos, there's very old buildings on most of the corners. Besides, that point isn't a point, because CapMetro isn't going to have to make those sharp turns in downtown Austin with the Stadler DMU trains. The point I've tried to make is that there's no problem operating these trains on city streets, as long as the streets are fairly straight. By the way, 4th Street is straight as an arrow. So is Guadalupe, with just a few curves these trains can make.

You're absolutely full of crap here.

1. DART used the same 1/4 mile rule when planning their first line as everybody else does.

2. In NJ, they did, indeed, condemn corners downtown to run their trains. Here's just one picture showing it quite clearly:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v...1563&encType=1

[electricron]

Originally Posted by M1EK

You're absolutely full of crap here.

1. DART used the same 1/4 mile rule when planning their first line as everybody else does.

2. In NJ, they did, indeed, condemn corners downtown to run their trains. Here's just one picture showing it quite clearly:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v...1563&encType=1

2) Nice picture you posted there, does this one that shows more of the area help more?



Was a building even there when NJT took the shortcut through the block? Almost the entire area around the tracks is parking lots.

1) Read this link, it might be informative:
http://www.enhancements.org/download/trb/1538-003.PDF

(It includes to origin of the 1/4 mile figure so many keep quoting.)

A 1970 study of the relationship between transit ridership and walking distance in a low-density Florida retirement area found a strong relationship between walking distance and bus transit use. The study found that among adults transit use dropped by almost 70 percent as walking distance increased from 200 m to 400 m. Many elderly passengers in the study complained that 400 m was too far for them to walk. They also strongly disliked having to cross major arterial roads.

Wow! What else would ou expect from retirees? Are most citizens of Austin retirees?

Let's look at the results of the 1994 light rail study from Calgary.

Walking distances were calculated for 23 of Calgary’s 31 stations. However, two suburban stations and the CBD stations are the focus of the report. One suburban station is a transfer station and the other is an inner-city local station. Transfer stations are large suburban stations that have park-and-ride facilities and are serviced by many feeder bus routes. Local stations are smaller scale and few have park-and-ride facilities or feeder bus service. The downtown stations are simple, raised passenger platforms spaced every second or third block.

Brentwood (suburban station)
Mean = 1097 m, ft
Female mean = 1,067 m, ft
Male mean = 1,116 m, ft
Median = 924 m, ft
Max = 3,524 m, ft
Min = 348 m, ft
Average Time = 12.72 minutes

Sunnyside (intercity station)
Mean = 443 m, ft
Female mean = 404 m, ft
Male mean = 491 m, ft
Median = 360 m, ft
Max = 1,624 m, ft
Min = 76 m, ft
Average Time = 4.52 minutes

At the Brentwood station the circuity factor averaged 1.21. The theoretical circular catchment area was calculated by dividing the 75th percentile distance of 1300 m by the circuity factor of 1.21 to obtain a radius of 1083 m. On the east side of the station is Brentwood Village Shops, a commercial strip-mall complex. However, there are large spaces between the various buildings that make up the mall complex, so it is not a barrier to people walking to the station. On the west side of the station is Research Park. Although there are a number of large employers in Research Park, there is little incentive for its workers to use LRT because there is ample free parking available. Research Park is a barrier for people who live west of it because there are no pedestrian paths through it; pedestrians are forced to follow the roads that wind through the area, which increases their walking distances. The community immediately west of Research Park is an excellent example of a pedestrian-friendly community. There are concrete pathways in front and behind most houses, and the pathways are lit at night. These pathways significantly shorten walking distances.

Sunnyside station is the last station on the NW line before it enters CBD. A number of people interviewed at the station said that, depending on the amount of time they had, the weather, and how they felt, they would walk directly into CBD instead of using LRT. The closest CBD station is roughly 1040 m from the Sunnyside station. Because all stations in CBD are in a free-fare zone passengers who board at the Sunnyside station are paying $1.25 (prepaid transit ticket) or $1.50 (cash fare) to save about 1040 m of walking. The average circuity factor at the Sunnyside station is 1.23. Using the 75th percentile distance and the average circuity factor, the radius of the theoretical catchment area is 527 m.

The average walking distance of the 1,611 pedestrian trips observed at the CBD stations is 326 m. The walking distances at CBD stations are much shorter than the walking distances at suburban stations. This is primarily because the majority of work locations are concentrated within a few blocks of the LRT line. (And I would like to add the stations are placed closer together.) Two-and-a-half blocks south of the LRT line is the Canadian Pacific Rail System (CPRS) main line. The average walking distance of those people who cross the CPRS tracks is 882 m, which is similar to the walking distances at suburban stations.

Recommendations from the study:
The results strongly indicate that walking distance guidelines used for bus stops should not be used for LRT stations. Commuters will walk farther to reach an LRT station than a bus stop. The walking distance guidelines for local, transfer, and CBD stations are shown below.

Local = 700 m
Transfer = 700 m
CBD Office = 400 m
CBD Residential = 900 m

Because pedestrians account for more than 25 percent of the mode split at suburban LRT stations their importance cannot be overlooked. The guidelines developed and presented provide planners, designers, and developers with quantifiable values for effective pedestrian service areas around LRT stations. Pedestrian friendly-environment in these areas, will encourage commuters to use transit.

My last, good transit agencies know the distances of their patrons will walk vary with age, lighting conditions, state of the sidewalks, traffic conficts, etc. That's why there's so much effort placed into public art, sidewalks, benches, landscaping, shelters, and lighting near their stations.

I'm not the one suggesting the maximum train passengers will walk to a station is just a quarter mile, period. I'm the one suggesting the distance patrons will walk to a train station can be far more. 700 m is closer to a half mile than to a quarter mile.

[427MM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The same suburbanites who won't take an excellent, comfortable, express bus ride straight to their office today, you mean? Those people are the ones you expect to take not one, but TWO transit rides to get where they're going?

In short, yes. I’ve studied this topic in depth and I have repeatedly found that Americans think much more favorably about rail public transportation options than they do the rubber wheeled alternatives. Even if their commute will require (as you seem passionate that it will) a short leg on a bus, this still plays out. There is very little investment with the bus system compared to the rail alternative and the developments around the two different kinds of stops shows this clearly. Developers don’t go bananas about a new bus stop, no matter what kind of bus it happens to be. On the other hand, they often times clamor to build around train stops. And these developments for the most part are akin to the sustainable, walkable communities that first sprang up around the original street car suburbs. When are we going to stop trying to solve this Twenty-First Century problem with Twentieth Century solutions?

[ATXboom]

HOME: SEPTEMBER 19, 2008: NEWS
UT Students Ignite Streetcar Passions
BY KATHERINE GREGOR
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrob...oid=oid:674803





Rail 4 Real panelists, from left: UT Dean Fritz Steiner, Cap Metro's Doug Allen, Brandon Janes from the Chamber of Commerce, Council Member Brewster McCracken, Rep. Mike Krusee, UT's Bob Harkins, and moderator John Langmore
Courtesy of Greg AndersonRail 4 Real, a University of Texas student group advocating for rail transit to serve the UT campus, held its kickoff event Sept. 10. An audience of about 100 students, faculty, and others heard an overview of the Austin streetcar system recommended by the city's ROMA consultant team, followed by a panel discussion and Q&A session.

"It's refreshing to see a fresh group of faces" excited about transit issues, noted panel moderator John Langmore. Allied student groups organizing the event included UT's Urban Development Society, the Campus Environmental Center, and student government. Generating strong interest was the discussion over whether the campus streetcar alignment should run along San Jacinto, as desired by UT's administration; on the more central Speedway; or on Guadalupe.

Dramatizing the passions sometimes ignited by transit and sustainability issues was an alleged assault by Skip Cameron, who sits on the Coalition on Sustainable Trans­porta­tion executive committee with Jim Skaggs and Travis Co. Commissioner Gerald Daugh­erty. Already agitated, Camer­on was asked by UT student Greg Anderson, who had helped organize the event, to desist from distributing outside materials (promoting a different transportation approach), in accordance with university policy. When Cameron refused, Anderson asked him repeatedly to leave. According to eyewitnesses, Cameron grabbed the student around the throat and pushed him against a limestone wall, desisting when transit advocate Glenn Gadbois and others intervened. University Police subsequently took Cameron into custody, but Anderson chose not to press charges. According to the incident report, police issued Cameron a criminal trespass warning. Cameron says he had simply been defending himself after Anderson grabbed his arm and tried to take his handouts.

Capital Metro Executive Vice President Doug Allen presented ROMA's recommendations for a rail system; the transit authority is developing a detailed follow-up proposal. Panel participants included Austin Mayor Pro Tem Brewster McCracken; Texas state Rep. Mike Krusee; Fritz Steiner, UT dean of architecture; Bob Harkins, UT associate vice president for campus safety and security; and Austin Chamber of Commerce representative Brandon Janes. McCracken, Krusee, Steiner, and Janes sit on the Transit Working Group, which is expected to review Cap Metro's proposal to the Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization in Novem­ber; an authorizing voter referendum also would be required, possibly next May. When Lang­more asked, "Who would vote to expand our rail system today?" nearly everyone in the student-packed room raised a hand. But the rail-friendly Janes warned, "We need to be realistic about the ability to sell this very substantial investment to the community in general." As he characterized the attitude of some voters: "I don't want to pay $600 million to haul around a bunch of yuppies."

Noting that the rail line would be electricity-powered, McCracken (who also serves on Cap Metro's board) referenced the leap in the agency's diesel-fuel bill, between the 2007 and 2008 budgets, from $11 million to $25 million. He also stated that Houston now has 50,000 rail riders a day – the No. 2 ridership in the U.S.

Harkins said Cap Metro shuttle buses serving the campus already carry 7 million passengers annually. "We want rail to link places where students live to the campus," he said, referencing Riverside Drive, West Campus, and Cameron Road. But UT representatives have said previously that UT will not be a financial partner in the streetcar project unless it gets service to its Pickle campus in North Austin, targeted for future development. "It's got to be viewed as a regional rail system," Harkins emphasized.

Objected Krusee, "UT said, 'We don't want to pay one dime!'" Enjoying the freedoms of an official not running for re-election, he continued irreverently, "'And we don't want to talk about where it's going to go, because it's going to go on San Jacinto! For reasons we don't want to talk about!'" Criticizing UT, he also called the nearby stretch of Waller Creek through campus "a stinkin' pit!"

"What I'd really like to have is a circulator that goes all the way around campus," Har­kins allowed, after reasserting UT's choice of San Jacinto. "A loop that goes down Guada­lupe would be great." Dean Steiner agreed: "The ideal solution in my view is a loop." Steiner encouraged the audience to study the "beautiful" campus master plan, which shows a pedestrian mall now estimated at $110 million for Speedway and designates San Jacinto for future rail service. "One hundred ten million dollars so people can have a better sidewalk?" Krusee jibed. "Why don't we have an open debate? Why don't we appoint a panel to really look at this thing?" His comments were greeted by audience applause.

Two more Rail 4 Real events are upcoming. On Thursday, Sept. 25, at 7pm, the Campus Environmental Center will host UT professor Sinclair Black, who has led the argument that a rail line should be located closer to current activity nodes. On Wednesday, Oct. 15, at 7pm, the Rail 4 Real coalition will host a related discussion between Austin Mayor Will Wynn and UT President William Powers. For more information, visit www.rail4real.org.

[427MM]

It was a great meeting! The students are passionate about rail. My favorite point in the meeting was when John Langmore asked the audience members who would vote yes today to raise their hands. Everybody I could see had their arm up, some even had two arms up. As the student coalition consists of the UT Urban Development Society, the Campus Environmental Center and Student Government, to name a few, their skills and passions run the gamut. It is heartwarming though, to see how all of these young individuals not only want rail, but are spending dozens of hours pursuing it.

What I think will happen is that the first phase of street cars will go up San Jacinto on its way to Mueller. This would leave a wonderful opportunity for a future line to go up Guadalupe (and maybe south down San Antonio) and connect this part of the University, West Campus and of course the North Guadalupe/ North Lamar area. Ideally, this line would go up to Pickle and maybe hit the Domain. As gas prices continue to rise, and as we collectively tire of treating the environment like an open-sewer, the winds of change will push harder and harder on the back of rail. Good times for sure.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by 427MM

In short, yes. I’ve studied this topic in depth and I have repeatedly found that Americans think much more favorably about rail public transportation options than they do the rubber wheeled alternatives. Even if their commute will require (as you seem passionate that it will) a short leg on a bus, this still plays out. There is very little investment with the bus system compared to the rail alternative and the developments around the two different kinds of stops shows this clearly. Developers don’t go bananas about a new bus stop, no matter what kind of bus it happens to be. On the other hand, they often times clamor to build around train stops. And these developments for the most part are akin to the sustainable, walkable communities that first sprang up around the original street car suburbs. When are we going to stop trying to solve this Twenty-First Century problem with Twentieth Century solutions?

Greg, the key is that people base that on good light rail (frequent direct service) versus local bus (frequent, hopefully direct service) - and NOT on commuter rail that requires shuttle transfers (which has seen no development around train stops that wouldn't otherwise have occurred - that's in South Florida, Seattle, heck, even on ultra-successful lines like the LIRR, you don't see much TOD compared to what you see along MAX and DART).

Look at Austin - the big "TOD" out in Cedar Park is in foreclosure, and the two candidate projects in Austin are actually looking less dense than the Triangle. In those cases, "TOD" was used to convince neighbors to approve density that the market was clearly more than willing to support with or without the rail transit, since the Triangle filled up just fine with no rail on the horizon.