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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 5:10 AM
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it actually looks taiwanese!! looks like taiwan copied alot of 1970s/80s architectural styles from the west. it needs to update and copy 2009 styles!
yes,honnestly, i'm sure that taiwanese architects copied alot the architectural style from the west of this epoch.

during this era, european and taiwanese big cities met a similar social problem:how to offer very quickly a lot of low cost housing to workers from abroad and country sides, or populations quickly become "rich"...and the found solution is very functionnal and very ugly housing...

since about 10 yo, the french government has been leading an urban renovation program. this is some examples of new generation social housing :

in pays de la loire province


in the parisian suburb





and a "social housing" in paris built in the 20's (when france still was a really prosperous empire..). it's incredible, but this building is inhabited by employees and workers...
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Last edited by pierre-laurent; Mar 28, 2009 at 5:33 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 9:36 AM
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no taiwan's political isolation has never prevented nobody in taiwan who wish it from studying or having a trip in the so-called "civilized world" and nowadays, there is something magical, called "internet"...

i think the problem of taiwan is this society has lived in a culture of provisional since 1949. on the other hand, taiwan has become really properous since the 70's,80's, the period where the urban architecture in the west was really ...a disaster, unfortunatly, taiwan has partially copied such a model..
political isolation prevents a lot more things than you're acknowledging though. for instance, the lack of WHO membership prevents taiwan's government healthcare agencies from collaborating with rival agencies among the international community. this goes beyond how healthcare is conducted in the national healthcare system. it probably limits the progress of healthcare education in the vast private sector (universities), or of education in general. the "internet" also doesn't help taiwan's CDC collect and analyze epidemiological data in the most effective manner available, again, because of the inability of its members to collaborate with those of rival agencies. political isolation also has indirect consequences - it means there is an absence of political pressure on taiwan's legislature to provide adequate support for public programs which most nations take for granted, programs like arts endowments or research initiatives or those which support responsible journalism.

inability to join the UN precludes taiwan of UNESCO recognition and funding. taiwan is probably the only industrialzed "country" without a single recognized world heritage site or UN language conservation initiative. taiwan might have hosted an olympics games by now had it not been for political isolation. had it not been for political isolation, it might not have been excluded from developing culturally enriching trade partnerships with countries anxious to appease a demanding China. of course we're talking about architecture here, but my point is that political engagement has multiplicative effects on the development of a country's identity, effects which go far beyond what trade surpluses and improved gdp alone can do. because of political isolation, taiwan lacks these benefits, and must rely completely on avenues such as the internet and the personal mobility of its citizenry to exchange ideas with the rest of the world.

my last point is much more holistic but ties into the above points. national identity provides a strong cultural affirmation that is difficult to quantify, but its role in the maturation of a distinctive local arts identity cannot be denied. regarding your point about western architecture, it's the urban design in the west which was a disaster in the 60s, but even then one could make a case for the originality of such modernists as mies or le corbusier, and one could not deny the tie between such modernists and their national origins. if you ask me taiwan is a failure in originality overall, especially considering its relative prosperity. thanks to the economic miracle of its plastics and computer manufacturing, taiwan has drastically improved on basic measures relating to increased gdp - hdi, newborn survival rate, life expectancy, sanitation, etc. but it has yet to become a creative, flourishing, post-industrial society with a sense of national identity and purpose - one who's businesses innovate instead of manufacture, whose artists influence instead of mimic, whose scientists discover instead of emigrate...a vibrant democracy whose citizens are allowed to become thinkers. a society with an internal frame of reference. a self-posessed society. every strong society has a cultural rallying point around which to gather, be it in the form of values, religion, or tradition. on the contrary, taiwan's business leaders continue to pursue a lowest common denominator business culture which is putting taiwan's economy and society into the grips of a plotting chinese rival. the obvious is true of its political leaders as well. this is reflected in taiwan's relatively weak value of the humanities in all levels of society. political isolation has prevented taiwan from realizing its economic miracle in full potential because it keeps taiwan's focus on the outside, especially on china.

Last edited by edluva; Mar 30, 2009 at 11:19 AM.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 11:11 AM
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^sorry about the tangentially related digression btw
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
political isolation prevents a lot more things than you're acknowledging though. for instance, the lack of WHO membership prevents taiwan's government healthcare agencies from collaborating with rival agencies among the international community. this goes beyond how healthcare is conducted in the national healthcare system. it probably limits the progress of healthcare education in the vast private sector (universities), or of education in general. the "internet" also doesn't help taiwan's CDC collect and analyze epidemiological data in the most effective manner available, again, because of the inability of its members to collaborate with those of rival agencies. political isolation also has indirect consequences - it means there is an absence of political pressure on taiwan's legislature to provide adequate support for public programs which most nations take for granted, programs like arts endowments or research initiatives or those which support responsible journalism.

inability to join the UN precludes taiwan of UNESCO recognition and funding. taiwan is probably the only industrialzed "country" without a single recognized world heritage site or UN language conservation initiative. taiwan might have hosted an olympics games by now had it not been for political isolation. had it not been for political isolation, it might not have been excluded from developing culturally enriching trade partnerships with countries anxious to appease a demanding China. of course we're talking about architecture here, but my point is that political engagement has multiplicative effects on the development of a country's identity, effects which go far beyond what trade surpluses and improved gdp alone can do. because of political isolation, taiwan lacks these benefits, and must rely completely on avenues such as the internet and the personal mobility of its citizenry to exchange ideas with the rest of the world.

my last point is much more holistic but ties into the above points. national identity provides a strong cultural affirmation that is difficult to quantify, but its role in the maturation of a distinctive local arts identity cannot be denied. regarding your point about western architecture, it's the urban design in the west which was a disaster in the 60s, but even then one could make a case for the originality of such modernists as mies or le corbusier, and one could not deny the tie between such modernists and their national origins. if you ask me taiwan is a failure in originality overall, especially considering its relative prosperity. thanks to the economic miracle of its plastics and computer manufacturing, taiwan has drastically improved on basic measures relating to increased gdp - hdi, newborn survival rate, life expectancy, sanitation, etc. but it has yet to become a creative, flourishing, post-industrial society with a sense of national identity and purpose - one who's businesses innovate instead of manufacture, whose artists influence instead of mimic, whose scientists discover instead of emigrate...a vibrant democracy whose citizens are allowed to become thinkers. a society with an internal frame of reference. a self-posessed society. every strong society has a cultural rallying point around which to gather, be it in the form of values, religion, or tradition. on the contrary, taiwan's business leaders continue to pursue a lowest common denominator business culture which is putting taiwan's economy and society into the grips of a plotting chinese rival. the obvious is true of its political leaders as well. this is reflected in taiwan's relatively weak value of the humanities in all levels of society. political isolation has prevented taiwan from realizing its economic miracle in full potential because it keeps taiwan's focus on the outside, especially on china.
agree with u on every points. and i hate le corbusier's work.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 8:00 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
^sorry about the tangentially related digression btw
yea you must be extremely bored.

i've read some articles criticizing the dearth of quality architecture in taiwan that said the govt, especially under the kmt when they ruled the country in previous decades, didnt allow foreign architects (and developers) to bid on construction projects. thus local architects had a virtual monopoly on the industry. this eliminated competition and thus the learning and sharing of ideas and construction technology with foreign countries.
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 12:04 AM
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I'm Taiwanese ,but I really have the gap with Taiwanese people. I normally criticised Taiwanese archietect design, especially normal residentail building, for example Taiwanese style european building.

In other day, after I posted this project, I criticised C.Y Lee design when someone in skyscrapers.tw say that he design good skyscrapers for Taiwan. I really did't think so, and I struggle to discuss with them. Basically, I was talking about he needs to prove himself, he needs to have a good design base on his logic that convinced international community (especially Architect) of his idea is can be worked. In fact, this is why I don't like him.

Many Taiwanese think Taipei 101 and Kaoshiung 85 tower are classics. Come on, they are not classics! There are thousands of buildings better than these two. I was angry in that day and I really lost my contact. Someone kept saying that not all buildings, design and architects in western countries are good. In my point of view, you can say that. But, you need to aware that western countries have much better preception in these areas. We are straggly in these areas, why many people doesn't admit this.

The only thing I agree with them is that I'm not an architect, I don't have actual strength in the design. Is that necessary? But, I find my weakness during the discussion. I lost my point and contact when I was angry, I need more experience.
========================================================================================================================

Now, our government is trying to encourage developers taking on foreign architects rather than local architects. So, world game stadium comes out, Taipei twin towers comes out...etc.
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 1:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
yea you must be extremely bored.

i've read some articles criticizing the dearth of quality architecture in taiwan that said the govt, especially under the kmt when they ruled the country in previous decades, didnt allow foreign architects (and developers) to bid on construction projects. thus local architects had a virtual monopoly on the industry. this eliminated competition and thus the learning and sharing of ideas and construction technology with foreign countries.

that may explain part of it, but it's not just limited to architecture. taiwan is suffering from a lack of creativity in all facets of society. industrial design, visual arts, literature, philosophy, technological research - it's still operates as an industrial society where cheap labor is leveraged to the maximum extent that wages allow. taiwanese society is allergic to innovation and risk taking.

and yes, i was bored and drunk. it happens.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 1:33 AM
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Originally Posted by williamchung taiwan View Post

Many Taiwanese think Taipei 101 and Kaoshiung 85 tower are classics. Come on, they are not classics!
actually all the taiwanese i know - those who are studying, working in the u.s. - think taipei 101 is really ugly.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 3:35 PM
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^ agreed. Same here in Canada....

William, you are free to express your point here. I am sure that people on
skyscraper.tw are just...too biased perhaps.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
that may explain part of it, but it's not just limited to architecture. taiwan is suffering from a lack of creativity in all facets of society. industrial design, visual arts, literature, philosophy, technological research - it's still operates as an industrial society where cheap labor is leveraged to the maximum extent that wages allow. taiwanese society is allergic to innovation and risk taking.

and yes, i was bored and drunk. it happens.
actually cloud gate dance group is world famous. and i've read about various taiwanese artists/designers who've received acclamations. and the designer of michelle obama's inauguration dress is taiwanese - i think his name is jason hu. he had a runway show at 2009 fall fashion show in new york. so it's slowly changing.
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 3:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen View Post
^ agreed. Same here in Canada....

William, you are free to express your point here. I am sure that people on
skyscraper.tw are just...too biased perhaps.
Perhaps, I need to be more comprehensive...
I cannot manage my mental....
The gap will be built when you lost your contact and mental to others.

I realise that I must continue studying and getting more experiences.

Last edited by williamchung taiwan; Apr 1, 2009 at 5:48 AM.
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 6:03 AM
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
political isolation prevents a lot more things than you're acknowledging though. for instance, the lack of WHO membership prevents taiwan's government healthcare agencies from collaborating with rival agencies among the international community. this goes beyond how healthcare is conducted in the national healthcare system. it probably limits the progress of healthcare education in the vast private sector (universities), or of education in general. the "internet" also doesn't help taiwan's CDC collect and analyze epidemiological data in the most effective manner available, again, because of the inability of its members to collaborate with those of rival agencies. political isolation also has indirect consequences - it means there is an absence of political pressure on taiwan's legislature to provide adequate support for public programs which most nations take for granted, programs like arts endowments or research initiatives or those which support responsible journalism.

inability to join the UN precludes taiwan of UNESCO recognition and funding. taiwan is probably the only industrialzed "country" without a single recognized world heritage site or UN language conservation initiative. taiwan might have hosted an olympics games by now had it not been for political isolation. had it not been for political isolation, it might not have been excluded from developing culturally enriching trade partnerships with countries anxious to appease a demanding China. of course we're talking about architecture here, but my point is that political engagement has multiplicative effects on the development of a country's identity, effects which go far beyond what trade surpluses and improved gdp alone can do. because of political isolation, taiwan lacks these benefits, and must rely completely on avenues such as the internet and the personal mobility of its citizenry to exchange ideas with the rest of the world.

my last point is much more holistic but ties into the above points. national identity provides a strong cultural affirmation that is difficult to quantify, but its role in the maturation of a distinctive local arts identity cannot be denied. regarding your point about western architecture, it's the urban design in the west which was a disaster in the 60s, but even then one could make a case for the originality of such modernists as mies or le corbusier, and one could not deny the tie between such modernists and their national origins. if you ask me taiwan is a failure in originality overall, especially considering its relative prosperity. thanks to the economic miracle of its plastics and computer manufacturing, taiwan has drastically improved on basic measures relating to increased gdp - hdi, newborn survival rate, life expectancy, sanitation, etc. but it has yet to become a creative, flourishing, post-industrial society with a sense of national identity and purpose - one who's businesses innovate instead of manufacture, whose artists influence instead of mimic, whose scientists discover instead of emigrate...a vibrant democracy whose citizens are allowed to become thinkers. a society with an internal frame of reference. a self-posessed society. every strong society has a cultural rallying point around which to gather, be it in the form of values, religion, or tradition. on the contrary, taiwan's business leaders continue to pursue a lowest common denominator business culture which is putting taiwan's economy and society into the grips of a plotting chinese rival. the obvious is true of its political leaders as well. this is reflected in taiwan's relatively weak value of the humanities in all levels of society. political isolation has prevented taiwan from realizing its economic miracle in full potential because it keeps taiwan's focus on the outside, especially on china.
You remind me, Taiwan haven't become develpment country in the sense of soceity, value, enivronment even enconomic. Thanks for hit me awake!
It may be another reason why I have gap with my compatriots.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by williamchung taiwan View Post
Perhaps, I need to be more comprehensive...
I cannot manage my mental....
The gap will be built when you lost your contact and mental to others.
sounds like you need a psychiatrist.
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 11:16 PM
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You remind me, Taiwan haven't become develpment country in the sense of soceity, value, enivronment even enconomic. Thanks for hit me awake!
It may be another reason why I have gap with my compatriots.
let's give taiwan alot of credit. she's come a long way in 50 years. where it took the west centuries to get to where they're at taiwan has developed at less than half the time. add to that the complexity regarding taiwan's history of being a neglected piece of land tossed around different foreign powers and its current questionable status as a nation (which it is despite what the u.n. says) and the confusion taiwanese have about their own identity. nationalism builds nations and compared to countries like south korea and the u.s. taiwan lacks that nationalism - that hunger to be #1 and to do and be the best in every aspect. i mean some taiwanese dont even think they're a country or dont want to be and are happy just riding on the back of china. so taking into consideration all these disadvantages i think taiwan's done pretty well. it's a hi-tech powerhouse, its still got the world's tallest building and even the u.s. doesnt have high speed rail or universal health care!

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 2, 2009 at 6:27 AM.
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 3:49 PM
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^ Agreed. Nationalism is what we need. We do have a lot of high-tech products and learning how to apply it in the right place is very important.
Decent planning in all areas are required!!
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 6:45 AM
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^ Agreed. Nationalism is what we need. We do have a lot of high-tech products and learning how to apply it in the right place is very important.
Decent planning in all areas are required!!
its gotten alot better... especially with the emerging generation that is now twice removed from the original immigrants of 1949. Ask anyone in school now where they are from, and all of them will say "taiwan." It's sad how people expect a nation like taiwan to have a national identity in as little as 50 years. Give it time, and things will develope just like any other nation in the world. The important thing is that there is progress, albeit slow, but it definitely exists. I remember 20 years ago, all manufacturing in Taiwan was prretty much OEM, white box crap. Now, we see Visio becoming the #1 seller of LCD TVs in the world, HTC finally giving Taiwanese Cell phones some edge, Kingston, Asus, Evergreen all starting to establish a brand identity. No, they aren't industry-leading brands, but they are definitely making a name for themselves.

It's only a matter of time before Taiwanese people really become full Taiwanese. A strong national identity will be spurred by domestic success much like it has in South Korea. From the looks of it, HTC seems to really be the one company that is positioning itself on the high-end market and their success will be crucial in bringing respect to the Taiwanese electronic industry.
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 10:09 AM
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yup nationalism is badly needed for taiwan. i typically despise nationalism, and prefer more secular democratic values such as human rights as a rallying point but in taiwan's case, something is badly needed. china is sapping all of taiwan's "spiritual potential" by throwing wrenches in its gears. this partly explains why south korea has risen so much faster than taiwan from a creative standpoint, granted it's nowhere near as provocative as japan. technology and prosperity only help a nation acheive strength. those things alone don't make a nation strong however.

the problem with taiwan is it doesn't have a common rallying point in history or culture. the wave of kmt immigration brought a major stumbling block and taiwan is still trying to figure out how these waishengren fit into a national identity when so many of them still vow loyalty to the pan-ethnic construct of "chineseness". it makes one ask, what does it mean to call onself "chinese"? is it a cultural burden? or is it political? is it ethnic? or is it racial? as far as i'm concerned, it's arbitrary. who cares. we're all human. i am edluva before i am my cultural burden. to many chinese people, and those in other collectivist societies, it's the exact opposite. they are chinese before they are the responsible citizen.

taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism.
my attitude towards any group of immigrants is always the same. if you've come for a better life, you owe it to your future to unload your burdens at the gates. taiwan can't create because it's not willing to look towards its future.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM.
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 10:44 AM
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its gotten alot better... especially with the emerging generation that is now twice removed from the original immigrants of 1949. Ask anyone in school now where they are from, and all of them will say "taiwan." It's sad how people expect a nation like taiwan to have a national identity in as little as 50 years. Give it time, and things will develope just like any other nation in the world. The important thing is that there is progress, albeit slow, but it definitely exists. I remember 20 years ago, all manufacturing in Taiwan was prretty much OEM, white box crap. Now, we see Visio becoming the #1 seller of LCD TVs in the world, HTC finally giving Taiwanese Cell phones some edge, Kingston, Asus, Evergreen all starting to establish a brand identity. No, they aren't industry-leading brands, but they are definitely making a name for themselves.

It's only a matter of time before Taiwanese people really become full Taiwanese. A strong national identity will be spurred by domestic success much like it has in South Korea. From the looks of it, HTC seems to really be the one company that is positioning itself on the high-end market and their success will be crucial in bringing respect to the Taiwanese electronic industry.
dont forget acer!! #3 in top global computer companies and still rising!!
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 10:43 PM
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taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism.

umm, you're talking about changing an entire culture which i dont think is possible. taiwanese are like americans - they are chinese by blood but taiwanese by nationality. the two can go hand in hand. america is still very much a euro-centric nation as it was founded by europeans. and americans -at least euro-americans - still retain alot of their european cultural traits. yet americans very much established and maintain their own separate identity and nationality. what's keeping taiwan from doing the same is the constant threat from red china of military attack whenever the taiwanese express any inkling that they are a sovereign nation and have their own identity. this really negatively affects the taiwanese psyche and keeps taiwan literally frozen in time - too afraid to change the status quo.

plus what does those chinese values have anything to do with designing better architecture or building world class name brands or nationalism? china, south korea and japan are all confucian societies that practice filial piety and nepotism. that hasnt hindered their economic development and nationalistic sentiment. if anything maybe it's a benefit. it's having these confucian values which emphasizes education and dictates studying/working hard and obedience and respect for elders that has helped to establish the foundation for the success of these asian nations. whenever i read how messed up the rest of the world is like in mexico, latin america, mideast, asia, africa and even some european countries where there exists rampant illiteracy, unemployment, poverty, crime, drugs and alcoholsm, etc. i just think it is so amazing how far and much taiwan has progressed in these few decades. for a little island country with no natural resources to come out of extreme poverty 50 years ago to become one of the world's developed and highly educated countries and a major player in the hi-tech industry is truly awesome.

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 3, 2009 at 11:13 PM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 1:08 AM
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I think we have gone way too far here. Of course people would say that they are from Taiwan....but afterall, our ancestors are from China. You can't deny the fact that we are the same group of people expect that we are split apart due to various wars, cultural influences and the political division. You can't really be a "full" Taiwanese.


Quote:
i just think it is so amazing how far and much taiwan has progressed in these few decades. for a little island country with no natural resources to come out of extreme poverty 50 years ago to become one of the world's developed and highly educated countries and a major player in the hi-tech industry is truly awesome.
Razqual, you are correct that we did an amazing job in the last few decades and maybe members here, even me, should start recongize the progress and achievements we have made. Take the MRT for example...it is constantly expanding and plans for Taipei to the International Airport are well under construction. Even other major cities of the south are building them. We can do great if we have the funds and plan...the most important of all is that we can get things done in time.

I am quite mad that the SkyTrain system in Vancouver still has small cars (like the mu zha..brown line in Taiwan) and we are still expanding this old system.....


Bravo for Taiwan...
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