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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I remember the last thread on here, debating Halifax vs. Calgary in terms of sidewalk-level liveliness. My contention then was that it was no contest--Halifax pulls way ahead. But Calgary generally emerged higher in others' rankings. Honestly, I don't understand that at all; the level of everyday pedestrian activity and continuous urbanity, extended over a large area, dwarfs what you see in Calgary 's inner city, Beltline included. That was driven home last summer when I visited Calgary for the first time in a few years with my east-coast wife and found 17th Avenue simply not the hotspot that I recalled it to be, even over a whole week/weekend of staying in the area. Some of Halifax's busy-ness is tourists, but the city is also fairly full in early spring and late fall, well before the tourism season ramps up.

Not a slam on Calgary, which I'm envious of in various ways, especially as regards LRT and cycling infrastructure. But ranking it ahead of Halifax in this regard, at least, (or ahead of Quebec City, or Victoria) feels inexplicable to me.
I feel the same way, and I originally expected that Calgary would be much busier and much more vibrant than Halifax. I have been to Calgary a bunch of times now.

There are certainly some things Calgary has that are more "big city" than Halifax, like LRT and actual skyscraper office towers. However I think there might actually be less in the way of urban storefront neighbourhoods and overall street life, or at least they are pretty comparable, with Halifax being much more historic. Calgary would definitely come out on top if you defined downtown very narrowly as office towers ("CBD").
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:28 PM
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I agree with Pavlov. Downtown Victoria is very nice but does not feel as busy as Calgary's downtown.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:34 PM
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I noticed the chains in Kingston. Is it the smallest Canadian city that has retailers like that in urban storefronts? Presumably Queen's is a factor in those stores being viable. It's also somewhat rare for Canada in that it doesn't have much of an office core (if I remember correctly mostly just the odd 70's-era hotel or apartment). The nicer parts are fairly retail focused and have a lot of heritage buildings. On paper I'd guess that it looks like a fairly low density area, yet it's one of the nicer downtowns in Canada.
I think you're probably right about the chains. Maybe Whistler and Mont-Tremblant could qualify as well - but their villages are artificial.

Approaching downtown Kingston on the main drag Princess Street you go through of a long stretch of typical commercial sprawl where it's actually a highway with stop lights masquerading as a "street". Then you have a half dozen blocks where it's denser but it's a bit depressing and run-down, kind of like some of the down-on-their-luck post-industrial cities of southern Ontario (shabby but not scary). Then when you get to the actual downtown it's really very nice. And reasonably large.
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:35 PM
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As for Calgary vs. Ottawa, all of the areas of the city I've been in outside of the densest CBD skyscraper cluster (actually used as "Metropolis" in a Superman movie) feel a lot more "airy" than comparable areas of Ottawa.

This includes 17th Avenue/Beltline BTW, compared to the Glebe, Westboro, Byward Market, etc.

This is a very good way of putting it. Largely a function of being a newer city, of course.

I'd consider both to be more or less on par nowadays, but when I first moved to Ottawa almost 20 years ago the city definitely felt more urban outside the downtown core. Calgary has accomplished a lot in that time though.

I visited Halifax for the first time last summer and was very impressed at how urban it felt.
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:36 PM
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Yeah, fair enough, that's another point to be had. I agree it's less obvious how much is lost in a city like Halifax or Saint John. I've walked by that parking lot in the Saint John example and, like you said, wouldn't have thought there was something that substantial there before.

Winnipeg has a bit of this going on too. It's easy to be dazzled by the Exchange District, other old commercial buildings on Main, Portage, etc as well as the extent of old pre-war neighbourhoods, but it too has faced lots of destruction and urban renewal. I think it's still more obvious this took an effect in Winnipeg than the Maritime cities as there is more substantial extent of parking lots as well as jarring urban renewal projects like Portage and Main, Portage Place, etc.
Aside from stuff being lost there are a lot of prominent flaws that could be fixed (actually are being fixed now, but weren't 20 years ago) and have a big impact. For example, the legislature in Halifax has a weird parking lot, an empty lot across the street, and is fronted by an abandoned office building. The nicest commercial block is wedged in next to an interchange to nowhere so it's oddly dead.

Saint John has the problems but, well, is probably not going to redevelop in the same way. Although some of the heritage restoration is nice and there's the new Irving HQ.

Halifax and Saint John have low-hanging urban redevelopment fruit all over the place. They are different from a built-out growing city where infill is pushing out into suburban areas and there is more quasi-greenfield development.

I'm not very familiar with Winnipeg so I'm not sure if it's like this but I could see it being the case. For example maybe there are some squares where one side is a parking lot, or almost-perfect rows of early 1900's office buildings disrupted by an ugly parkade.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:37 PM
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I feel the same way, and I originally expected that Calgary would be much busier and much more vibrant than Halifax. I have been to Calgary a bunch of times now.

There are certainly some things Calgary has that are more "big city" than Halifax, like LRT and actual skyscraper office towers. However I think there might actually be less in the way of urban storefront neighbourhoods and overall street life, or at least they are pretty comparable, with Halifax being much more historic. Calgary would definitely come out on top if you defined downtown very narrowly as office towers ("CBD").
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:38 PM
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I feel the same way, and I originally expected that Calgary would be much busier and much more vibrant than Halifax. I have been to Calgary a bunch of times now.

There are certainly some things Calgary has that are more "big city" than Halifax, like LRT and actual skyscraper office towers. However I think there might actually be less in the way of urban storefront neighbourhoods and overall street life, or at least they are pretty comparable, with Halifax being much more historic. Calgary would come out on top if you defined downtown very narrowly as office towers ("CBD").

There is a thing on SSP that I might call "argument from metropolitan area population statistics" that's hard to overcome. It works most of the time in Canada, but not always, and completely falls apart in a wider context.
I've lived in Kingston now for about six years. It is much older than Calgary and has a much higher proportion of historic, storefront neighborhoods. Its downtown is also adjacent to a large, prestigious university which is totally dominated by out-of-town students who reside on or near campus. It has probably one of the healthiest, most vibrant small city downtowns in Canada.

But its downtown area is tiny compared to Calgary and is nowhere remotely near as busy. Now, Princess Street in Kingston is busier than, say, 5th Avenue in Calgary on any given Friday night at midnight, but if you look at activity levels in the entire downtown areas (including the Beltine, Chinatown, etc) on that same Friday night at midnight , there is simply far, far more activity in downtown Calgary. Metro size, residential density, institution density, and employment density are all, IMO, the biggest factors influencing "busyness" of a downtown. Built form is also a factor, but only one among these many (and of course there are others as well).
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:42 PM
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Winnipeg: quite busy during the day. Did not explore as much as I would like at night, but Portage was quite busy. Exchange is impressive, almost like Old Montreal, tough it seemed pretty dead the few times we walk through.
Winnipeg's Exchange District kinda reminds me of large parts of Old Montreal and Old Quebec City several decades ago, before they became "en vogue" again. I am old enough to remember when much of those old towns felt dusty and vacant (late 70s, early 80s).
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I agree with Pavlov. Downtown Victoria is very nice but does not feel as busy as Calgary's downtown.
During business hours Calgary is busier.
Evening and weekends Victoria is busier.
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Winnipeg's Exchange District kinda reminds me of large parts of Old Montreal and Old Quebec City several decades ago, before they became "en vogue" again. I am old enough to remember when much of those old towns felt dusty and vacant (late 70s, early 80s).
The flight to the suburbs started in the 1950s and ran through the 1990s. Downtowns became en vogue again in the 2000s (depends on the city) because inexpensive prices and lots of availability drew a younger crowd in and gentrified it.

In that sense, downtowns with lots of cheap places and suburbs that are getting too expensive or far out have the best bones for future growth, provided the local economy is doing well. Winnipeg may be the best positioned to take advantage of something like that, same with Hamilton.

The highs and lows were more prominent in the US than Canada. Compare New York City of the 1970s and 1980s to New York City of the 2000s with Montreal of the '70s and today.

Edit: It's weird to see in a personal sense. I grew up in Sudbury and it's nice (but again, weird) to sit on the patio of a nouveau-ish restaurant on a street that was once known as "This is where the hookers and druggies used to hang out" and watch young hipster-y couples walk by with kids.

Last edited by wave46; Mar 30, 2020 at 6:13 PM.
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:00 PM
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In the summer, Banff Avenue (a small 10 block stretch of street) reaches near Mong-Kok-ian levels of pedestrian traffic. Does that make it one of the busiest downtowns in Canada?

I personally don't think so.
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Denscity View Post
During business hours Calgary is busier.
Evening and weekends Victoria is busier.
Mostly agree... except during May - Sep Victoria's DT almost always feels busier (maybe mot early in the am), due to the extra cruise ship crowds and more tourists. The exception might be stampede week.

This year is an exception of course - March already saw a noticeable drop in tourist traffic, and our season is usually just starting ramp up! It is pretty quiet.
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:06 PM
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Has Niagara Falls been mentioned yet? Aside from it being a Ghost town right now it's usually a pretty hoping place from Easter until American Thanksgiving.
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:11 PM
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I agree with Pavlov. Downtown Victoria is very nice but does not feel as busy as Calgary's downtown.
Victoria is my favourite city in the country, at least that I've been to so far. Halifax and Ville Quebec might give it a run for its money though. However, I don't know how I feel about if Victoria is as busy/busier than Calgary or not. Victoria has the stunning waterfront with no analogue in Calgary (or really anywhere in Canada west of Quebec City), and it is allllways busy. The thing about Victoria (and Halifax) is that all of the activity is concentrated in a much smaller area. So both cities may appear busier than Calgary, but that's only because they're much more compact. They both also had a minimum of 30 years (Victoria) and 100 years (Halifax) of historic/pre-automobile development than Calgary did. This is where all of Albertas cities fall short, as they were the last major centres founded in Canada. Calgary is the oldest, established in 1884, and that isn't saying much. Either way, I'd say Calgary and Victoria are pretty much on par, with an edge to Calgary. I can't speak to Halifax, but again the concentration versus the spread. Concentration creates a better sense of vibrancy, so maybe Halifax wins?
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:11 PM
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I didn't word it correctly. Downtown Vancouver does not have any large post-sec campuses like we see in eastern Canada.

From what I can gather, most downtown satellite campuses are on the small side, mostly part-time students. I imagine there's a limited amount of student residences downtown.

I believe VFS is the only one that's based downtown, and it is quite small (1,000 students).
Very true. Vancouver's student population is nearly non-existent compared to Eastern cities. In fact that is true of all Western Canadian cities except Winnipeg which has the smallish U of Winnipeg. It makes some difference during the day but a huge one at night. Quebec city , Kitchener, and St.John's are exceptions in the EAST. Western isn't right downtown but close enough that there is no real "student ghetto" at the university as the students all congregate downtown and especially Richmond Row.
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:40 PM
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Montreal's retail vacancy problem contributes to the "gappy" feel of its downtown, as does its large size and historically wandering focus. On the latter, could it be that the centre of gravity, built form-wise, will return to Victoria Square after its long westward ramble to Ste-Catherine and Peel? Development patterns seem to imply this could happen.
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:47 PM
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Montreal's retail vacancy problem contributes to the "gappy" feel of its downtown, as does its large size and historically wandering focus. On the latter, could it be that the centre of gravity, built form-wise, will return to Victoria Square after its long westward ramble to Ste-Catherine and Peel? Development patterns seem to imply this could happen.
Yes there is the pull towards the southwest/Griffintown that is occurring but there is also a pull eastward with the "nicer" more upscale part of Ste-Catherine pushing further towards Place des Arts and Quartier des Spectacles, and also an eastward push closer to the river with the massive redevelopment of the Radio-Canada complex and other stuff like the long-abandoned (but still handsome) Gare Viger.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:53 PM
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If you're comparing the Lower Mainland (which would include the separate CMA of Abbotsford), then you can definitely compare it to Seattle-Tacoma, which are more integrated as a single metro area (more like the Vancouver CMA), and still has a million more inhabitants. I'm quite familiar with Tacoma and while it does have a bit of its own thing going on, it's been more integrated into the same larger region for some time. It's more like a Los Angeles and Long Beach situation than a Toronto and Hamilton situation.

In terms of downtown vibrancy, I'm less familiar with nearby neighbourhoods like Capitol Hill. Daytime vibrancy on Granville St and around Westlake Center felt pretty similar to me, maybe slight edge to Vancouver. Either way, it confirms my point that Vancouver is a lot busier for its size.

Seattle MSA - 3.9 million
Seattle-sans-Tacoma - 3.1 million
Vancouver CMA - 2.5 million
Lower Mainland - 2.8 million
The numbers are not the point. I was just pointing out how Seattle is dipolar, with Tacoma being the much small pole. But it still centre’s about 800,000 people; which reduces the concentration on downtown Seattle. That’s all. Abbotsford is completely irrelevant in nature. Plus let’s not discuss the different statistical methods of the US and Canada - for the thousandth time. Seattle, sans Tacoma 3.1 million, Lower mainland 3.05 million (Abbotsford & Chilliwack being akin to Bremerton and Kent.

Anyway, I have a lot of family, friends and business people who live in Seattle and area. Every single one that has visited Vancouver has been shocked by the feel and high level of activity in the downtown, but also elsewhere. A common remark is that Vancouver feels like a much bigger city than Seattle. They are shocked to hear the numbers. (Seattle has been improving in recent times)

If we were to include American cities in this, Vancouver would still rank very high, and Montréal/Toronto even higher. The only US cities that would compete with our top three, and some would be quite a bit ahead, would be: New York, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Chicago, and San Francisco. Places like Seattle, Portland, San Antonio, Denver, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami, and New Orléans (the rest of the year), all would be a step down. I’m sure there are more as well.

Last edited by Marshal; Mar 30, 2020 at 7:16 PM.
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:00 PM
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I feel the same way, and I originally expected that Calgary would be much busier and much more vibrant than Halifax. I have been to Calgary a bunch of times now.

There are certainly some things Calgary has that are more "big city" than Halifax, like LRT and actual skyscraper office towers. However I think there might actually be less in the way of urban storefront neighbourhoods and overall street life, or at least they are pretty comparable, with Halifax being much more historic. Calgary would definitely come out on top if you defined downtown very narrowly as office towers ("CBD").
That echoes my viewpoint and experience. I assumed Calgary would look and feel far busier and more vibrant than downtown Halifax but it wasn't. In terms of skyline and office tower its no contest whatsoever but at street level Halifax, to my surprise, comes out on top.

A few things are at play imo. Downtown Halifax is made up of narrow streets and is easier to get around on foot than by car. It's very compact, there are tons of university students (28,000) + faculty just a 10 minute walk away, there are lots of big hospitals adjacent to it, there are often hordes of soldiers/sailors walking around in summer, and there's a sizeable cruise ship industry as well.

Halifax has a far more vibrant and busy downtown than you'd expect for a metro of 440,000. And it's more about Halifax punching far above its weight than a knock against Calgary.
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Last edited by isaidso; Mar 30, 2020 at 7:30 PM.
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:02 PM
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