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  #61  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
I guess one way of looking at Halifax is that it’s a city that used to be relatively larger vis-a-vis other Canadian cities. I definitely see that. I tend to view Halifax as like a miniaturized big city, though. It feels relatively metropolitan for a city of 400k. Victoria by contrast is in Vancouver’s shadow and feels more provincial. Halifax has a lot of pull over a large geographic area and has a coalescence of various groups of people (creatives, students, businesspeople, etc) that give the city a critical mass of amenities you wouldn’t expect in such a small city.
I think that's pretty accurate.

I remember the last thread on here, debating Halifax vs. Calgary in terms of sidewalk-level liveliness. My contention then was that it was no contest--Halifax pulls way ahead. But Calgary generally emerged higher in others' rankings. Honestly, I don't understand that at all; the level of everyday pedestrian activity and continuous urbanity, extended over a large area, dwarfs what you see in Calgary 's inner city, Beltline included. That was driven home last summer when I visited Calgary for the first time in a few years with my east-coast wife and found 17th Avenue simply not the hotspot that I recalled it to be, even over a whole week/weekend of staying in the area. Some of Halifax's busy-ness is tourists, but the city is also fairly full in early spring and late fall, well before the tourism season ramps up.

Not a slam on Calgary, which I'm envious of in various ways, especially as regards LRT and cycling infrastructure. But ranking it ahead of Halifax in this regard, at least, (or ahead of Quebec City, or Victoria) feels inexplicable to me.
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  #62  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Completely unfair comparison!!! "Old Town" Duluth (downtown) is 140+ km away from the Ontario border and should totally not count.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7868...7i16384!8i8192
LOL!

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.47376...4!8i8192?hl=fr
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  #63  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 12:03 PM
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At street level Montreal and Toronto are definitely closer to each other (and arguably even in many people's books) than Vancouver is to Montreal.

As for Calgary vs. Ottawa, all of the areas of the city I've been in outside of the densest CBD skyscraper cluster (actually used as "Metropolis" in a Superman movie) feel a lot more "airy" than comparable areas of Ottawa.

This includes 17th Avenue/Beltline BTW, compared to the Glebe, Westboro, Byward Market, etc.

Even inner Quebec City feels less "airy" than Calgary Beltline to me.

This is about 3 km out from the heart of Quebec City's old town:

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8029...7i13312!8i6656
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  #64  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 2:26 PM
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Of the cities I've visited, I tend to agree with the general sentiment.

Montréal: countless lively downtown neighborhoods wrap around le Mont Royal. Dense late 19th - early 20th century housing results in over a million people living in the urban core. The dense Métro system makes it easy to get people in and out of the city. Numerous large universities inject life and youthfulness everywhere.

Vancouver: solid rapid transit system serves the core well. Extremely dense central core thanks to countless condo towers. Lively main streets and downtown neighborhoods. No central colleges or universities.

Ottawa: transit system fairly well connected to some urban neighborhoods. One large university in the core. Other post-sec institutions within easy transit ride from the downtown. Pretty good density in the core. Numerous vibrant, entertainment districts, if a little small compared to others in Canada.

Victoria: Lively touristy district ceremonial heart that dies down significantly after hours. Vibrant night life in Old Towne. Significant density for a city its size.

Winnipeg: quite busy during the day. Did not explore as much as I would like at night, but Portage was quite busy. Exchange is impressive, almost like Old Montreal, tough it seemed pretty dead the few times we walk through.
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  #65  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Of the cities I've visited, I tend to agree with the general sentiment.

Vancouver: solid rapid transit system serves the core well. Extremely dense central core thanks to countless condo towers. Lively main streets and downtown neighborhoods. No central colleges or universities.
Downtown Vancouver has a campus for UBC at Robson Square; Simon Fraser University has a downtown campus; BCIT has a downtown campus, Vancouver Community College has downtown campus, and VFS Vancouver Film School has several buildings downtown. Northwestern University is opening at Deloitte Summit, and University Canada West is opening downtown at Vancouver House

Last edited by Graham_Yvr; Mar 30, 2020 at 2:56 PM. Reason: added two more.
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  #66  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
The +15 experience is akin to Skytrain, both compared to their underground counterparts.

I agree with most of what ue has said. My rough approximation based upon experience:

Toronto - 11
Montreal - 9.5
Vancouver - 8.5
Ottawa - 4
Calgary - 4
Quebec - 3.5
Edmonton - 3
Winnipeg - 3
Hamilton - 2.5
?
Halifax - 5 (exaggerated score due to its small pop.)
Victoria - 5.5 (exaggerated score due to its small pop.)

Vancouver has a very busy background, almost as much as the big two, but only Yonge and Ste. Catharine are long crushingly crowded (sometimes) 'main' streets. Robson and Granville are more than a notch down.
This is a take I generally agree with. The only tweak I would make is shifting Victoria to 5, same as Halifax.

Not sure where Saskatoon and Regina factor into this but I'd probably put them in at about 2.5. Roughly similar to Hamilton, just smaller.

Really the list mirrors population with only a couple of outliers... which in this case is basically Quebec, Victoria and Halifax getting a good lift from tourism.

It's interesting, because Canada doesn't really have the aforementioned Phoenix style city which has a huge population but not a ton of busy, urban downtown character.
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  #67  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:33 PM
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In Ontario, I'd say that the rank of busiest downtowns doesn't really reflect population size, at least after #1 Toronto and #2 Ottawa, which really are the province's only "big city" downtowns.

The "third best" downtown in Ontario could variously be Kingston, Hamilton or London. My nod goes to Kingston given its small size, but also because it has architectural landmarks and things like middle class chain fashion retail (Lululemon, Gap, Urban Outfitters) that neither Hamilton or London has.

On paper, downtown Kitchener almost has Richard Florida's wet dream: LRT, tech jobs and burgeoning residential development. It may eventually be the third best downtown, but it still feels very sleepy. It used to be a terrible downtown, though, on par with what you'd find in the worst rust belt town in the US.
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  #68  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
In Ontario, I'd say that the rank of busiest downtowns doesn't really reflect population size, at least after #1 Toronto and #2 Ottawa, which really are the province's only "big city" downtowns.

The "third best" downtown in Ontario could variously be Kingston, Hamilton or London. My nod goes to Kingston given its small size, but also because it has architectural landmarks and things like middle class chain fashion retail (Lululemon, Gap, Urban Outfitters) that neither Hamilton or London has.

On paper, downtown Kitchener almost has Richard Florida's wet dream: LRT, tech jobs and burgeoning residential development. It may eventually be the third best downtown, but it still feels very sleepy. It used to be a terrible downtown, though, on par with what you'd find in the worst rust belt town in the US.
And, if you're as old as me, it used to be a busy, vibrant downtown (before it was a terrible, rust belt one). With 2,500 new apartments under construction in DTK, I suspect it will look considerably busier in two or three years time (if current events don't kill development).
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  #69  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
In Ontario, I'd say that the rank of busiest downtowns doesn't really reflect population size, at least after #1 Toronto and #2 Ottawa, which really are the province's only "big city" downtowns.

The "third best" downtown in Ontario could variously be Kingston, Hamilton or London. My nod goes to Kingston given its small size, but also because it has architectural landmarks and things like middle class chain fashion retail (Lululemon, Gap, Urban Outfitters) that neither Hamilton or London has.

On paper, downtown Kitchener almost has Richard Florida's wet dream: LRT, tech jobs and burgeoning residential development. It may eventually be the third best downtown, but it still feels very sleepy. It used to be a terrible downtown, though, on par with what you'd find in the worst rust belt town in the US.
And then you have Frankenstein's monster: Niagara Falls.

Though is that really its downtown?
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  #70  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
...
It's interesting, because Canada doesn't really have the aforementioned Phoenix style city which has a huge population but not a ton of busy, urban downtown character.
Maybe not huge population in absolute terms, but in terms relative to Canada and its cities, it seems like London, Windsor and KWC are pretty large to get so few mentions in this regard. I mean metro London being larger than Halifax or Victoria and metro KWC basically as populous as metro Halifax and Saint John combined? And Windsor being just shy of Victoria, or equal to the combined metros of Moncton, Saint John, and Charlottetown?

I haven't been to London, KWC or Windsor, but hearing the responses so far makes me wonder...
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  #71  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Maybe not huge population in absolute terms, but in terms relative to Canada and its cities, it seems like London, Windsor and KWC are pretty large to get so few mentions in this regard. I mean metro London being larger than Halifax or Victoria and metro KWC basically as populous as metro Halifax and Saint John combined? And Windsor being just shy of Victoria, or equal to the combined metros of Moncton, Saint John, and Charlottetown?

I haven't been to London, KWC or Windsor, but hearing the responses so far makes me wonder...
Keep in mind that KCW has 3 to 5 "downtowns" (depends what you consider a downtown). It makes a difference. At the moment, Uptown Waterloo would be in the best shape, as far as retail and services are concerned.
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  #72  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And then you have Frankenstein's monster: Niagara Falls.

Though is that really its downtown?
NF is kind of like Las Vegas that way. It has a bit of a "strip" (although it's very disjointed), but its actual downtown is very forlorn and off the tourist beaten path.

Here is probably the "urban" part with the most vibrancy.

And here is the official downtown.
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  #73  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:53 PM
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This is a take I generally agree with. The only tweak I would make is shifting Victoria to 5, same as Halifax.

Not sure where Saskatoon and Regina factor into this but I'd probably put them in at about 2.5. Roughly similar to Hamilton, just smaller.

Really the list mirrors population with only a couple of outliers... which in this case is basically Quebec, Victoria and Halifax getting a good lift from tourism.

It's interesting, because Canada doesn't really have the aforementioned Phoenix style city which has a huge population but not a ton of busy, urban downtown character.
A lot of what makes a downtown vibrant (IMO) is the mixed-use medium density buildings. So, any city that had a large core prior to 1950 probably has a better shot at that 'vibrant' thing, simply because automobile transport hadn't taken off yet. One had to live close to use transit to get to work. People are naturally clustered together and automobile use is less convenient.

Any city that bloomed from 1950 though 1990 had more compartmentalized development. The core was the office district, industry was confined to industrial parks and people lived in the suburbs. The same mentality applied to suburban-style universities and cultural venues. Why bother to build cultural venues in high-density areas when you can plop it in a field in the suburbs and have everyone drive there? Toronto's suburbs are littered with pockets of super high-density towers, but I'd hardly call them vibrant, despite being super dense in areas.

Calgary and Edmonton were cities of <250,000 people in the 1950s and more represent that model of growth. To use an example to the south, compare New York City to Phoenix.

Unless the city is an outlier (like Vancouver), or had a recent bloom when being in the city was really in vogue again doesn't have the same vibe. It isn't a perfect explanation, but I think it accounts for the reason European and Eastern cities have more of the feel than North American western cities do.
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  #74  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:03 PM
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Hull feels a bit dumpy but it's improving a lot. There's a very nice little cluster of bars and cafés around a pedestrian street (Aubry Street) and Eddy Street has potential as a neighbourhood main street. There's plenty of activity, it just needs a bit more love in terms of improving sidewalks and planting trees.

There's also a fairly big Portuguese community around there which was a surprise to me.
This guy shoots videos with revellers in Vieux-Hull at night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpzrp2syHlY

This is generally in the Aubry-Laval district. It's quite small but as you say there is life there.

(A few kids I know are actually in those videos.)
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  #75  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:20 PM
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It's interesting, because Canada doesn't really have the aforementioned Phoenix style city which has a huge population but not a ton of busy, urban downtown character.
We kind of have this with the two Alberta cities. Especially if we take the word of that Calgarian who's been living in Halifax (Drybrain) for how Calgary is actually less busy/alive than even tiny Halifax. That's serious population ranking disproportionality right there.
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  #76  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Maybe not huge population in absolute terms, but in terms relative to Canada and its cities, it seems like London, Windsor and KWC are pretty large to get so few mentions in this regard. I mean metro London being larger than Halifax or Victoria and metro KWC basically as populous as metro Halifax and Saint John combined? And Windsor being just shy of Victoria, or equal to the combined metros of Moncton, Saint John, and Charlottetown?

I haven't been to London, KWC or Windsor, but hearing the responses so far makes me wonder...
Good point. I have never visited any of those three cities so I don't have an impression of them beyond what I've seen in photos here. But yes, you would think that given their size, they'd be mentioned a little more frequently.

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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
We kind of have this with the two Alberta cities. Especially if we take the word of that Calgarian who's been living in Halifax (Drybrain) for how Calgary is actually less busy/alive than even tiny Halifax. That's serious population ranking disproportionality right there.
Yeah, I see what you're getting at. But neither even comes close to Phoenix in this regard (that is a good thing - this is one race you'd want to let Phoenix win). Both Calgary and Edmonton dramatically exceed what I've seen in terms of downtown vitality in many US downtowns of a similar 1-2 million population. Even a huge downtown like Houston doesn't feel that materially different to me than Calgary even though Calgary is like what, 1/5 the size?

So I guess a place like Edmonton is like Canada's Phoenix, but it still doesn't come close to touching the real Phoenix, if that makes sense.
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  #77  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:48 PM
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From a pure numbers perspective, there's not a huge difference. Like I said earlier, Vancouver has 220 000 people living in 7 square miles (do the conversion yourself if you don't like imperial), which might actually be a bit higher density than Montreal, but Montreal has more office jobs, and a larger overall metro area. Been to Montreal a number of times and it didn't feel all that much busier than Vancouver to me. But if somebody wants to say Montreal is busier that's fine. I like Montreal.
Interesting analysis so far in the discussion. Though I feel that we often compare oranges to apples when this "downtown" discussion comes up. In fairness, the metrics used by forumers here are different from each other. If we considered a 7 sq. mile area for downtown Montreal, it would cover 90% of the Plateau-Mont-Royal borough / the Mile End, the whole Ville-Marie borough (downtown, Vieux-Montréal, Golden Sq. Mile, McGill), St-Henri/Petite-Bourgogne (east of Atwater St.), Pointe-St-Charles (north of Wellington St.) Hochelaga (west of Joliette St.). This represents 212 000 people (census 2016), 18 sq. km (7 sq. miles). So quite comparable to Vancouver, population/density-wise.

If Montreal or Toronto included every single of their dense, walkable neighbourhoods with busy commercial streets into their definition of downtown, then their downtowns would be huge.

People in Montreal tend to see their city as neighhbourhoods rather as central / peripheral. The downtown area, as defined by the City, is smaller than what it is in reality.
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  #78  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Graham_Yvr View Post
Downtown Vancouver has a campus for UBC at Robson Square; Simon Fraser University has a downtown campus; BCIT has a downtown campus, Vancouver Community College has downtown campus, and VFS Vancouver Film School has several buildings downtown. Northwestern University is opening at Deloitte Summit, and University Canada West is opening downtown at Vancouver House
I didn't word it correctly. Downtown Vancouver does not have any large post-sec campuses like we see in eastern Canada.

From what I can gather, most downtown satellite campuses are on the small side, mostly part-time students. I imagine there's a limited amount of student residences downtown.

I believe VFS is the only one that's based downtown, and it is quite small (1,000 students).
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  #79  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:12 PM
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My nod goes to Kingston given its small size, but also because it has architectural landmarks and things like middle class chain fashion retail (Lululemon, Gap, Urban Outfitters) that neither Hamilton or London has.
I noticed the chains in Kingston. Is it the smallest Canadian city that has retailers like that in urban storefronts? Presumably Queen's is a factor in those stores being viable. It's also somewhat rare for Canada in that it doesn't have much of an office core (if I remember correctly mostly just the odd 70's-era hotel or apartment). The nicer parts are fairly retail focused and have a lot of heritage buildings. On paper I'd guess that it looks like a fairly low density area, yet it's one of the nicer downtowns in Canada.
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  #80  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
We kind of have this with the two Alberta cities. Especially if we take the word of that Calgarian who's been living in Halifax (Drybrain) for how Calgary is actually less busy/alive than even tiny Halifax. That's serious population ranking disproportionality right there.
That same poster also suggested that Victoria's downtown felt busier than Calgary's, which I respectfully disagree with (I've lived in both cities).

Don't get me wrong: downtown Victoria is great for a city its size and age, but in my opinion it just doesn't have the size or variety or number of uses and institutions that Calgary does in its downtown.

And granted, downtown Calgary suffers from a fairly strong segregation of uses between the CBD and the surrounding neighborhoods, but seems to me (granted, I haven't visited for a few years now) that this is changing.

Of course, this is a largely subjective exercise, and so is vulnerable to the influence of unconscious preconceptions and biases (and I certainly include myself in that assessment).
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