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  #3861  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 7:16 PM
cairnstone cairnstone is offline
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
That wasn’t a proposed budget devised by the government, that was a bid put forward by a private contractor.

The Golden Nears Bridge along with its viaducts, ramps, interchanges and roadway was under 1 billion, so not too hard to imagine.
true but not a fair comparison as it was done as a true global 3 P project. European labour was used to build the bridge and were housed in work camps and paid in euro. This project was at the height of foreign worker program. The rebar cages for large parts of the project was tied in Asia and only had a percentage was tied here after the unions cried fowl. If you ever watch some of the ega structure shows on discovery channel in Europe that was the way it was built. If I recall Translink had a significant claim against BF for quality of work and also Worksafe had major issues as hurt workers were flew home without reporting the injuries.
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  #3862  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 7:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
At this rate, no shovels are going to be in the ground for a tunnel replacement before an election. The environmental certification process that a tunnel would require will take years. That $40M in "interm improvements" is likely going to get flushed down the toilet, just like the 'fifth lane' on the previous Port Mann Bridge.

As much as I could see the liberals resurrecting their cancelled project with a win in 2021, I cannot speculate how all the new NDP taxes, Liberal dumpster fire parades, Legislature 'perp walks', Green betrayals (LNG approval), and now the Covid-19 pandemic and corresponding economic calamity are going to weigh on voter's minds. That, and many of us have had a 'hard' shift to working at home. It will be interesting to see how quickly traffic volumes recover to previous levels, and if they stabilize at a new normal where some of the white-collar types are working from home more. Obviously, there are many who are not and cannot work from home. That said, an 8 lane bridge with NEW interchanges might be an acceptable compromise, or a bridge deck with enough space for 10 lanes, but striped with 8 on opening day, leaving adequate shoulder space for breakdowns, and protected active transportation opportunities ... and later to 10 lanes in the future if needed. An 8 lane tunnel drives me crazy in this respect, because one simply does not widen a tunnel.
I feel like the NDP were on their way to a majority government next election even before Covid with their all out assault on housing unaffordability/corruption and money laundering, and drastic overhaul of ICBC. With Covid they've now shown they can also lead competently through a global crisis. Their biggest fuck up is the cancellation of the Massey Bridge but in these times that almost seems trivial now.
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  #3863  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 11:07 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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You're absolutely right about that -- they've been carefully rolling out a number of high-profile initiatives like changes to primary health care, MSP fee shift to a payroll tax, affordable housing, Spec Tax, "fixing" ICBC, while rolling out all the various financial dumpster fires of the past government... which *are* bad. I think we're stuck with whatever the NDP decides to build for the GMT ... but we won't see anything happen for a loooong time, given the typical timeframe for an environmental assessment for a project "touching" the river.

So, likely outcome is the NDP wins a majority, and then... years will pass... a federal environmental cerificate *might* be issued... another election... maybe the magnitude 9 might hit... who knows. Are they not on record stating a new crossing won't be open until at least 2030 now?
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  #3864  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
That wasn’t a proposed budget devised by the government, that was a bid put forward by a private contractor.

The Golden Nears Bridge along with its viaducts, ramps, interchanges and roadway was under 1 billion, so not too hard to imagine.
Construction costs have gone way up since 2009 though, well above the rate of inflation (which between 2009 and 2020 is about 17%).
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  #3865  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 7:15 PM
flipper316 flipper316 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
At this rate, no shovels are going to be in the ground for a tunnel replacement before an election. The environmental certification process that a tunnel would require will take years. That $40M in "interm improvements" is likely going to get flushed down the toilet, just like the 'fifth lane' on the previous Port Mann Bridge.

As much as I could see the liberals resurrecting their cancelled project with a win in 2021, I cannot speculate how all the new NDP taxes, Liberal dumpster fire parades, Legislature 'perp walks', Green betrayals (LNG approval), and now the Covid-19 pandemic and corresponding economic calamity are going to weigh on voter's minds. That, and many of us have had a 'hard' shift to working at home. It will be interesting to see how quickly traffic volumes recover to previous levels, and if they stabilize at a new normal where some of the white-collar types are working from home more. Obviously, there are many who are not and cannot work from home. That said, an 8 lane bridge with NEW interchanges might be an acceptable compromise, or a bridge deck with enough space for 10 lanes, but striped with 8 on opening day, leaving adequate shoulder space for breakdowns, and protected active transportation opportunities ... and later to 10 lanes in the future if needed. An 8 lane tunnel drives me crazy in this respect, because one simply does not widen a tunnel.

Retaining the OLD interchanges is an embarrassment, keeps our highways rooted in '60's design standards, and does not make sense given that new structures would be constructed to modern seismic standards.

High-volume merging zones like the 17A / 17 merge points need a modern upgrade. The old vs new Cape Horn interchange is a great example of this -- the whole interchange cost a fortune, but it functions extremely well. Hwy 99 / 17A would greatly benefit from this at all times of the day. The old Cape Horn was a 'little' bridge with a tight loop ramp for access to Hwy 1 EB, and was a daily gong show in the afternoon rush hour. The remnant barrier-divided section on Lougheed Highway WB, starting at the United Boulevard / Mariner Way overpass is a monument to how much congestion there used to be here (on-ramp was widened to two lanes, and barrier separated to prevent queue-jumping).
Well said.
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  #3866  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 9:01 PM
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Thanks

On a related note, John Horgan has a 71% approval rating. Get ready for an NDP Majority, and expected consequences for this project.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...d-19-1.5588357
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  #3867  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 7:37 PM
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https://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...stuck-using-it


VICTORIA — The New Democrats recently announced the latest instalment in a $40 million refurbishing of the George Massey Tunnel, the aging Fraser River crossing that they plan to replace, one of these days.

“We continue to move ahead with our work to replace the George Massey Tunnel,” said Transportation and Infrastructure Minister Claire Trevena via press release from her office last month.

“But in the meantime, we are making immediate safety improvements inside the tunnel for drivers who use this route every day.”

This after her ministry awarded a $19 million contract to Vancouver-based Black & McDonald, lowest of five bidders on an open tender call for drainage, ventilation, electrical and lighting improvements.

“The existing lights on the tunnel walls and ceiling will be converted to an LED standard to increase visibility and better illuminate the tunnel for drivers, save energy and reduce greenhouse gas emissions,” said the release.

Article content continued
The $19 million contract, along with $3 million spent blacktopping the tunnel entrances last year, are part of a “suite of interim safety and reliability improvements” the New Democrats promised 18 months ago.

They conceded the need to improve safety and reliability of the 60-year-old tunnel after formally scrapping the plan, inherited from the previous B.C. Liberal government, to replace it with a 10-lane bridge.

The cancellation entailed writing off almost $100 million in work undertaken by the Liberals, including design, site preparation, extensive consultations and money spent by B.C. Hydro to begin relocating a power line across the river.

Article content continued
Trevena insisted that not all the expenditure was wasted because “we’re not going back to square one.” But to all appearances that is precisely what she did.

Scrapped were some 150 project reports, analyses, traffic forecasts, seismic, geotechnical environmental and other studies. Plus three rounds of public consultations and separate sessions with 13 First Nations and other Indigenous groups, entailing 700 meetings in all.

The ministry commissioned another technical study of the project, setting the stage for new public consultations earlier this year.

Participants learned details of the government’s preference for replacing the existing crossing with an eight-lane tunnel or an eight-lane bridge.

Article content continued
Each would have less carrying capacity than the 10-lane bridge, but cost more. The Liberals budgeted their project at $3.5 billion but their transportation minister Todd Stone maintains that before leaving office, they received a low bid for $2.6 billion.

The NDP’s eight-lane bridge would cost as much as $4.5 billion and the tunnel up to $5 billion, according to the technical report released with the consultations.

Both estimates came with a caveat: “These cost ranges are not suitable for budgeting purposes.”

Even with that qualification, both options echo what Stone said this week about the NDP approach to four-laning the Trans-Canada Highway through the B.C. Interior: “More money for less highway.”

The technical report from North Vancouver-based COWI-Stantec engineering team discounted several other options for replacing the tunnel.

Six-lane crossings were deemed inadequate. The existing tunnel was found wanting in terms of seismic standards and crossing times for transit. The report said it should be retained to carry utilities only.

A tunnel bored deep under the river was rejected because of the risk of encountering sinkholes during construction and the prohibitive price tag of up to $17 billion.

The eight-lane tunnel (constructed in sections on shore and then immersed in the river) would have less above ground impact and make for a shorter crossing.

The long-span bridge could undergo expedited environmental review (because the earlier bridge was already reviewed) and entail less disruption of the river bottom. But it would generate impact above the water line including “long-term noise, light, visual and shading effects.”

The Metro Vancouver mayors endorsed the tunnel option. But the transportation ministry has kept the bridge option alive, having recognized its advantages under the previous government.

Trevena drew fire earlier this year when she suggested that neither option needed provisions to carry light-rail transit across the river.

Article content continued
“There will not be the need for a light-rail system or anything like that for the foreseeable future,” she told CBC Radio. “Transit planners have looked at this. What they do see is frequent buses.”

The Liberals did make allowance for light rail in the carrying capacity of their 10-lane bridge and it seems likely the New Democrats will restore the option in whatever crossing they choose.

The ministry is now crafting a business plan drawing on the technical report and public consultations. It is due by the end of the year.

“I think we can get going on this quite quickly,” Premier John Horgan claimed a year ago. “This allows government to get started on this in a more timely way,” agreed Trevena.

Article content continued
But even if the business plan is ready by the end of 2020, the government routinely takes months to review, settle on a final proposal, call for bids, select a preferred proponent and finalize a contract.

Environmental approvals can take up to three years, according to the information provided in the public consultations. Construction of either bridge or tunnel would take another five.

The Liberals scheduled their 10-lane bridge for completion by 2022. On the NDP’s leisurely schedule, it could be another 10 years before their replacement crossing is in place.

If that meets the definition of “timely” (Trevena) or “quickly” (Horgan), one would hate to contemplate the schedule if the New Democrats were dragging their feet.

Vpalmer@postmedia.com
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  #3868  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 8:09 PM
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This project is the only reason I am angry at NDP. Well, this and removing tolls, but that's a different story.

We wasted 100 millions in work done, lose at least 10 years and pay over one billion more for something far inferior. All of that seems so irresponsible to me that I think it negates almost everything else they have done. That extra billion could have funded so much else.
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  #3869  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
This project is the only reason I am angry at NDP. Well, this and removing tolls, but that's a different story.

We wasted 100 millions in work done, lose at least 10 years and pay over one billion more for something far inferior. All of that seems so irresponsible to me that I think it negates almost everything else they have done. That extra billion could have funded so much else.
NDP has to pay for its "community benefits" (pronounced as "thanks for helping us getting voted in, unions") somehow.
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  #3870  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2020, 1:03 AM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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The tolls sucked, and there were ways around it that made the situation more inequitable. If you have to drive for work (sales rep, courier, etc), you could pay for the tolls from your business income... or get it reimbursed by an employer. I have friends who live in Fleetwood who 'didn't care' and were laughing all the way to work (on the previously nearly empty roadway) since their tolls were fully paid for by their employers. Call it corporate privilege? Is there a way to level the playing field to collect user-fees from everyone, without having half the cost get 'written off' in some form. That just ends up being revenue lost to the general coffers, meaning the tolls (indirectly) don't collect as much 'net revenue' as advertised. People who don't have the ability to write off the tolls are stuck with paying the tolls out of their 'after tax' income, with no way to write it off.

Last edited by Mininari; Jun 13, 2020 at 7:01 PM.
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  #3871  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2020, 9:32 PM
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I agree, removing the tolls didn't both me either, they did it as a thank-you to the Surrey voters who were a big part of the NDP win.

But I agree with Klazu, cancelling the bridge replacement THAT late in the process was reckless. It wreaked of political revenge on the Liberals (since that tunnel was one of their big projects) and not on common sense. It felt like they just didn't want Christie Clark's idea to come to fruition, and instead waste an insane amount of time and money so they could be the ones to conceieve it. It was arrogant actually, now that I think of it. Had the bridge just been an idea tossed around, it would be different. But cancelling it at that point, was reckless. They must be so thankful for the economiuc shutdown and quarantining now, since the traffic thru the tunnel has actually been good in the last few months. But all it takes is one stall, and of course resumption of normal traffic, and it will be hell immediately again. I think this was way more important than the Patullo project, by a long shot. But that project was between two of their biggest support strongholds
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  #3872  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:48 AM
flipper316 flipper316 is offline
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  #3873  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
The tolls sucked, and there were ways around it that made the situation more inequitable. If you have to drive for work (sales rep, courier, etc), you could pay for the tolls from your business income... or get it reimbursed by an employer. I have friends who live in Fleetwood who 'didn't care' and were laughing all the way to work (on the previously nearly empty roadway) since their tolls were fully paid for by their employers. Call it corporate privilege? Is there a way to level the playing field to collect user-fees from everyone, without having half the cost get 'written off' in some form. That just ends up being revenue lost to the general coffers, meaning the tolls (indirectly) don't collect as much 'net revenue' as advertised. People who don't have the ability to write off the tolls are stuck with paying the tolls out of their 'after tax' income, with no way to write it off.
My employer paid mine for a good 2-3 years because I drive a company vehicle. I didn't even have a decal.
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  #3874  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2020, 9:22 PM
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“When you have an accident or fire in the tunnel, our first responders have a heck of a time trying to get in there to attend that scene because of the narrowness of the tunnel. When this happens, it closes the tunnel down for hours or a day sometimes, depending on how bad the accident could be. This morning (Sept. 2) was a typical example,” said Paton.

“The counter-flow is another thing that’s a bit scary when you go through there at 80-kilometres-an-hour and you have cars or trucks coming at you literally a few feet away going the opposite direction. When I was on (Delta) city council, we discussed this for years and there was so much stakeholder consultations,” he said.
https://www.delta-optimist.com/news/...xAqDgsCqnpm0GY

Perhaps they should get rid of the contraflow lanes?
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  #3875  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2020, 9:36 PM
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Also from the article:

"The province is currently preparing a business case on a preferred replacement option – a new eight-lane immersed tunnel or a long-span bridge with the same number of lanes – to be completed later this year." and "Both options include decommissioning the current tunnel."

At the moment I'll take any sliver of good news I can find...
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  #3876  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2020, 9:52 PM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Also from the article:

"The province is currently preparing a business case on a preferred replacement option – a new eight-lane immersed tunnel or a long-span bridge with the same number of lanes – to be completed later this year." and "Both options include decommissioning the current tunnel."

At the moment I'll take any sliver of good news I can find...
Oh boy, another business case. Yo dawg, I hear you like business cases and studies, so I put a study on your business case so you can have business cases while studying the business case.
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  #3877  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 12:13 AM
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VancouverOfTheFuture VancouverOfTheFuture is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Also from the article:

"The province is currently preparing a business case on a preferred replacement option – a new eight-lane immersed tunnel or a long-span bridge with the same number of lanes – to be completed later this year." and "Both options include decommissioning the current tunnel."

At the moment I'll take any sliver of good news I can find...
my god, it is almost like they never should have canceled the long-span.

what a bunch of idiots those NDP.
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  #3878  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 2:37 PM
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what a bunch of idiots those NDP.
At least they're consistent, unfortunately.
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  #3879  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post

what a bunch of idiots those NDP.

Riiiiight... idiots.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/08...pularity-poll/
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  #3880  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
https://www.delta-optimist.com/news/...xAqDgsCqnpm0GY

Perhaps they should get rid of the contraflow lanes?
You lose 33% of your directional flow. As it is the tunnel gets pretty busy at rush hour.

People need to drive smaller cars again.
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