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  #1001  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 11:22 PM
Docere Docere is online now
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i'd say that chicago is the most "outlier-ish" among the major US great lakes cities because of the prevalence of brick vernacular, and because it's so much bigger, denser, more urban, etc.
Corrected.
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  #1002  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
So Detroit is the "outlier" among Great Lakes cities (besides Chicago)?
My guess is that people are claiming "Metro X isn't anything like Detroit" because of Detroit's notorious reputation. Even Cleveland and Buffalo partisans cannot bear any association with Detroit, it seems.
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  #1003  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Do affluent Cleveland suburbs have a higher proportion of their high school graduates attending Ivies than their counterparts in say Chicago, Detroit or St. Louis?
Putting aside Chicago, I doubt it. Anecdotal, but I attended an Ivy, after growing up in Metro Detroit, and there were no large populations from any of these metros excepting a few elite high schools.

And Detroit has proportionally more HNW households than Cleveland or Buffalo, and is about 2x and 5x the population, respectively. One would expect more students.

Chicago is an enormous metro, and has higher proportion of HNW households than Detroit, so should easily have the most in raw numbers and proportionally. New Trier, a public high school in suburban Chicago, is probably the biggest Midwest Ivy feeder.
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  #1004  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 12:36 AM
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I've always thought Milwaukee and Detroit had similar architectural bones.

and though I've never been to Buffalo (driven thru, but never stayed), I've heard people remark how Milwaukee and Buffalo have similarities when it comes to skylines and vibe.
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  #1005  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 2:29 AM
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I'm going to preface this by stating how much I love the stock of pre war high rises in the few U.S cities I have visited..I'm enamoured by that style.I think art deco, but I'm not an expert on all the variants on pre war style architecture.All I know is that in a NA context it feels like I'm walking into a museum of skyscrapers whenever I visited Detroit, Philly, and NYC..Buffalo has that style in spades..Even smaller upstate NY cities like Syracuse has it going on..
I'm just wondering if the Great Lakes share a different architectural build vs the Seaboard when it comes to those wonderful concrete design from the early to mid 20th century?..To me. they all looked the same, and I want to say Art deco, but there probably are some differences.

Last edited by Razor; Feb 20, 2018 at 4:48 AM.
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  #1006  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:10 AM
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When it comes to pre-war highrise building stock, the great lakes region represents extremely well.

NYC is obviously #1 worldwide in that department, but chicago is a solid #2 by most measures. After that the ordering is more muddled, but detroit is easily top 5 any way you cut it, and cleveland and Toronto are probably top 10. And buffalo and milwaukee have some stand out gems as well (particularly their respective city halls, which are among the most impressive in the nation).

And even though it's not a great lakes city, pittsburgh is also up near the top too. (Only mentioned because pittsburgh has been discussed a lot in this thread)
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 20, 2018 at 3:57 AM.
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  #1008  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
in fact midwestern cities are sort of defined by the fact that east coast people and money poured in to build them...this extends to chicago, to cincinnati, to cleveland, to st. louis, etc etc etc.
And this is why the East Coast/Midwest distinction doesn't really apply in the Canadian context. Toronto wasn't built up by "Easterners." However WASP Ontarians dominated the economic elite in Winnipeg for a long time.
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  #1009  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't understand why a cities are more "similar" if people move between the cities.

Tons of Detroiters retire in Naples, even more New Yorkers retire in Boca and environs. Chicagoans move to Phoenix. Buffaloans move to Charlotte. Is the contention that Chicago is like Phoenix because there are lots of Bears fans there?
Completely agree with you, BUT there's still a nugget of truth in what they're saying: if people have been moving between the cities a lot during the era they were coming of age, then it's likely that the built forms and urban environments will be somewhat similar due to common influences.

In the modern era this isn't as important as the cities are already pretty much built out.
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  #1010  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
When it comes to pre-war highrise building stock, the great lakes region represents extremely well.

NYC is obviously #1 worldwide in that department, but chicago is a solid #2 by most measures. After that the ordering is more muddled, but detroit is easily top 5 any way you cut it, and cleveland and Toronto are probably top 10. And buffalo and milwaukee have some stand out gems as well (particularly their respective city halls, which are among the most impressive in the nation).

And even though it's not a great lakes city, pittsburgh is also up near the top too. (Only mentioned because pittsburgh has been discussed a lot in this thread)
Thanks!..I just like that period for skyscrapers. Sure, Toronto has some..Just not to the same scale or ratio to glass as saay Detroit.
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  #1011  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 2:13 PM
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IMHO most cities have downtowns which look pretty similar, provided they were built up in around the same period. The differences tend to be between the housing vernacular of the residential neighborhoods.

The Great Lakes vernacular (outside of Chicago, where the Great Fire caused the city to make a 180) is detached wood framed homes, or 2-3 story walkups which look like detached wood framed homes. This is a common vernacular in many other parts of the country too, but it stands in contrast to the "river cities" to the south of the Great Lakes, where brick predominated.

In general, I think you can take any 19th century neighborhood from Buffalo, Cleveland, or Milwaukee, drop it in another city, and it wouldn't look out of place. The same is almost true about intact neighborhoods in Detroit, but for whatever reason, in Detroit front setbacks in the surviving old neighborhoods are pretty extreme - almost suburban feeling. Hamtramck could easily be part of the west side of Cleveland or something though.
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  #1012  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The same is almost true about intact neighborhoods in Detroit, but for whatever reason, in Detroit front setbacks in the surviving old neighborhoods are pretty extreme - almost suburban feeling. Hamtramck could easily be part of the west side of Cleveland or something though.
that is an interesting observation.


i just took a little streetview drive through corktown (aka "detroit's oldest neighborhood") and indeed the front yard setbacks are bigger than i would have expected for a 19th century neighborhood.

corktown side street: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3301...7i13312!8i6656



but then when i took a little drive through hamtramck, which is early 20th century, things are noticeably a little tighter, more developed, looking a lot like early 20th century cleveland.

hamtramck side street: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3973...7i13312!8i6656
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  #1013  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
that is an interesting observation.


i just took a little streetview drive through corktown (aka "detroit's oldest neighborhood") and indeed the front yard setbacks are bigger than i would have expected for a 19th century neighborhood.

corktown side street: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3301...7i13312!8i6656



but then when i took a little drive through hamtramck, which is early 20th century, things are noticeably a little tighter, more developed, looking a lot like early 20th century cleveland.

hamtramck side street: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3973...7i13312!8i6656
this is going to sound goofy, but the movie gran torino really highlighted the "front yard" and "big porch" aspect of detroit. while these are things that i usually associate with pre-war suburbia, i really thought it was kind of neat, and highlights the huge middle class wealth that was once present in urban detroit.

the big tree lawns like chicago are good, too.

this is a street in my suburb...as you can see, the tree lawns are quite often pathetic, something that the great lakes doesn't usually have a problem with. https://goo.gl/maps/B5qDsar8uYS2
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  #1014  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
My guess is that people are claiming "Metro X isn't anything like Detroit" because of Detroit's notorious reputation. Even Cleveland and Buffalo partisans cannot bear any association with Detroit, it seems.
Exactly!!!
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  #1015  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
this is a street in my suburb...as you can see, the tree lawns are quite often pathetic, something that the great lakes doesn't usually have a problem with. https://goo.gl/maps/B5qDsar8uYS2
In Pittsburgh we don't even have a name for the tiny piece of green between the sidewalk and the road. In front of my house it's only a foot wide. These are the biggest I know about - one of the most "Chicago" looking streets in the city. On most streets they just don't exist at all, and you need to cut a hole in the sidewalk to plant a street tree.
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  #1016  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post

the big tree lawns like chicago are good, too.
what the hell is a tree lawn?

are you talking about parkways?

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  #1017  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
what the hell is a tree lawn?

are you talking about parkways?


ebayimg.com

nope, im not talking about the strip of grass down the center of the street.
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  #1018  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 5:00 PM
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nope, im not talking about the strip of grass down the center of the street.
yeah, no shit, no one in this thread has been talking about medians.

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  #1019  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 5:05 PM
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yeah, no shit, no one in this thread has been talking about medians.


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  #1020  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 6:14 PM
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I've been to quite a few Midwest Cities (and lived in a couple) and I've been to Winnipeg. It seems like it has more of an East Coast vibe than Midwest. I think it's more distinctly Canadian, though, than either.
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