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  #201  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 7:48 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
And good and white.

Suburbs in the city.
South Williamsburg is also very white. Unless you don't consider Jews to be white.

Edit: Also, city neighborhoods dominated by families with children are much more "suburbs in the city" than ones dominated by young single people.
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  #202  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post

Edit: Also, city neighborhoods dominated by families with children are much more "suburbs in the city" than ones dominated by young single people.
Unless they're Mexican, of course.
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  #203  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:02 PM
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i'd much rather live in age-diverse neighborhood than one dominated by any single age cohort.

i want it all: the babies in strollers, the kids on the playground, the high schoolers smoking weed in the alleys, the college kids riding their fixies down the street, the young professionals fetching their ubers, the young parents going out for date nights, baby-boomers attending storefront theaters, the 80 year old grannies walking to church/synagogue/mosque.

that's one thing i love about my new neighborhood: while it's a little biased toward the young professional crowd, it still has a little bit of everything.

my zip code 60625:

Under 5 years - 7.5%
5 to 9 years - 5.3%
10 to 14 years - 4.6%
15 to 19 years - 5.2%
20 to 24 years - 7.2%
25 to 29 years - 10.7%
30 to 34 years - 11.7%
35 to 39 years - 9.9%
40 to 44 years - 7.2%
45 to 49 years - 6.3%
50 to 54 years - 5.9%
55 to 59 years - 5.1%
60 to 64 years - 4.6%
65 to 69 years - 3.3%
70 to 74 years - 1.9%
75 to 79 years - 1.4%
80 to 84 years - 1.2%
85 years and over - 1.1%

source: https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...w.xhtml?src=CF
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  #204  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:08 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Unless they're Mexican, of course.
There are plenty of Mexican suburbs if you go to the right part of the country,
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  #205  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i never said it did.

the recent discussion in this thread had expanded to all midwest cities.

topic drift happens all the time around here. it's ok.

sure boddy and people steer threads back to the topic as well, but thats not what i meant.

i was wondering because some people consider the great lakes region the states that surround them and some just the cities most near the great lakes. while there are a few reasons for the states to be thought of that way, mostly due to things like water rights defense, obviously i am in the latter camp, so that threw me!
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  #206  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i'd much rather live in age-diverse neighborhood than one dominated by any single age cohort.

i want it all: the babies in strollers, the kids on the playground, the high schoolers smoking weed in the alleys, the college kids riding their fixies down the street, the young professionals fetching their ubers, the young parents going out for date nights, baby-boomers attending storefront theaters, the 80 year old grannies walking to church/synagogue/mosque.
I'm a parent with two children living in the city, and I concur.

However, if you're talking about a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood, that generally means you want to have an active commercial district. And when considering commercial vitality, the number of households is more important than the number of people, given children don't really buy much, even if they do walk around the neighborhood. Therefore all things considered, "family-friendly" urban neighborhoods need even higher population densities then popular neighborhoods for young people to be as commercially vibrant.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm a parent with two children living in the city, and I concur.

However, if you're talking about a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood, that generally means you want to have an active commercial district. And when considering commercial vitality, the number of households is more important than the number of people, given children don't really buy much, even if they do walk around the neighborhood. Therefore all things considered, "family-friendly" urban neighborhoods need even higher population densities then popular neighborhoods for young people to be as commercially vibrant.
Yes to all this. I'm also happy living in an family-friendly urban neighborhood, but realize that, pound-for-pound, it's less vibrant than a singles-oriented neighborhood.

Kids aren't opening businesses, and their parents are dead-tired by 9. Families consume less than equivalent counts of singles. Weekday nights it gets quiet pretty early for NYC standards, in part because of kiddos.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:27 PM
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This is what I've now been taught about "urbanism" in this thread...

Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods aren't really as dense as the numbers show because their built form isn't all that "urban" and there's a lot of Latinos living together in wood frame housing. But if the neighborhoods were populated by young, single, affluent non-immigrants, then they would display that "good urbanity" with new bistros and galleries and such. And these densely-populated neighborhoods would now be considered urban enough that their densities would likely not be questioned.
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  #209  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
However, if you're talking about a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood, that generally means you want to have an active commercial district. And when considering commercial vitality, the number of households is more important than the number of people, given children don't really buy much, even if they do walk around the neighborhood. Therefore all things considered, "family-friendly" urban neighborhoods need even higher population densities then popular neighborhoods for young people to be as commercially vibrant.
i get all of that.

but for me the ideal is a mixture of all ages.

one of the reasons we settled on moving our young family to our current city neighborhood over the burbs was because the burbs we were looking at are overwhelmingly dominated by young families, which, combined with the >75% SFH aspect, basically kills vibrancy and functional walkable urbanism.

what we found in our city neighbrohood was enough family-freindliness to feel like we belong, but also enough of the young childless professional group that is a prime driver of restaurant/bar vibrancy.

like i said, having ages mixed together is far more preferable than living in a hipster ghetto, in my opinion.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:21 PM.
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  #210  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:46 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
This is what I've now been taught about "urbanism" in this thread...

Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods aren't really as dense as the numbers show because their built form isn't all that "urban" and there's a lot of Latinos living together in wood frame housing. But if the neighborhoods were populated by young, single, affluent non-immigrants, then they would display that "good urbanity" with new bistros and galleries and such. And these densely-populated neighborhoods would now be considered urban enough that their densities would likely not be questioned.
You just keep strawmanning here don't you?

There's two separate issues:

1. The built form in the Milwaukee neighborhoods I highlighted is not particularly urban for the Great Lakes. Note that I'm not saying it's categorically not urban - only that there's plenty of neighborhoods which look exactly like this in terms of built form elsewhere in the Great Lakes region. Of course if you consider the lake-shore towers it's a different matter entirely - besides Milwaukee, that typology really only exists in Chicago and Lakewood, OH (Cleveland suburb).

2. The population density of the region is boosted because it became a Latino area. Unlike black and many working-class white neighborhoods during the mid 20th century, Latino neighborhoods generally didn't experience population declines. They didn't have as rapid of a fall in number of children per family, had more multi-generational households, and due to high residential demand, few homes were abandoned and/or lost to the wrecking ball.

Last edited by eschaton; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:00 PM.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:49 PM
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^ for like the 4th or 5th time now, there's a lot more to milwaukee's density stats than just the SW side workers cottages crammed full of multi-generational latino families.

and FWIW, those dense latino neighborhoods on the SW side have helped keep retail streets like the one linked below mostly intact and alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0122...7i13312!8i6656

in places that experienced heavy white flight without latino influx, streets like the above often just crumbled..... gone forever.
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  #212  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:54 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ for like the 4th or 5th time now, there's a lot more to milwaukee's density stats than just the SW side workers cottages crammed full of multi-generational latino families.
I realize that. He keeps misrepresenting what I initially said as some sort of quasi-racist statement however.

Milwaukee does have an impressive cohesive urban form in its greater downtown and heading northward (interesting it follows the same basic geography as Chicago, although the black/Latino neighborhoods are in different places). But I do think it's more on par with Minneapolis overall in terms of scope than second to only Chicago.
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  #213  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:59 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and FWIW, those dense latino naeighborhoods on the SW side have helped keep retail streets like the one linked below mostly intact and alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0122...7i13312!8i6656

in places that experienced heavy white flight without latino influx, streets like the above often just crumbled.
Yes. As I said, this same dynamic happens nearly everywhere.

For example, in my home state of Connecticut, here is what the main business district in the Latino side of the city looks like. There really isn't an intact business district left on the black side of town.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
You just keep strawmanning here don't you?

There's two separate issues:

1. The built form in the Milwaukee neighborhoods I highlighted is not particularly urban for the Great Lakes. Note that I'm not saying it's categorically not urban - only that there's plenty of neighborhoods which look exactly like this in terms of built form elsewhere in the Great Lakes region. Of course if you consider the lake-shore towers it's a different matter entirely - that typology really only exists in Chicago and Lakewood, OH (Cleveland suburb)

2. The population density of the region is boosted because it became a Latino area. Unlike black and many working-class white neighborhoods during the mid 20th century, Latino neighborhoods generally didn't experience population declines. They didn't have as rapid of a fall in number of children per family, had more multi-generational households, and due to high residential demand, few homes were abandoned and/or lost to the wrecking ball.
It's not a strawman. I summarized what you and Crawford said. I did not make the argument to begin with.

Steely cited population densities of certain tracts in Milwaukee. You challenged those tracts' densities by bringing up their Latino makeup and less than model, I guess, urban vernacular.

I asked why this is somehow a qualifier to their densities and offered that what consitutes how urban a place is differs based on individiual definition.

So...

1. So what? Again, how is this a response (like your intial post) to Steely's post about Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods? I'm still wondering, what is the point? Because they're not "particularly urban" compared to other cities'?

2. So what? So what if a tract's population density is boosted because the human makeup happens to be Latino? I'm not getting what your point here is.
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  #215  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:08 PM
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But I do think it's more on par with Minneapolis overall in terms of scope than second to only Chicago.
oh for sure. when it comes to scale and scope of urbanism in the midwest, chicago operates on an entirely different level. chicago is to the rest of the midwest as NYC is to the rest of the nation. it's just on a different level.

when we say things like "milwaukee is like a mine-me chicago", no part of that statement has anything to do with the scale and scope of urbanism found in the two cities. the milwaukee/chicago comparison gets made so often because of their similar geographies (open, public lakefronts and urban river canyons), histories, and demographics. and of course their proximity to each other.

but all of those similarities operate at very different scales.
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If a Pizza is baked in a forest, and no one is around to eat it, is it still delicious?

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:29 PM.
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  #216  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:13 PM
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SSP sponsored field trip to Milwaukee is OBVIOUSLY in order.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:15 PM
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As I reminder, here's what you posted. I'm sure what you're stating is true. I'm just wondering why this is the response? Is it just pure analysis? If so, fine. I just watned to understand what you're trying to say with this. Because of the facts you share here, does that make these Milwaukee neighborhoods somehow less dense? Less urban? What?

Originally Posted by eschaton... I've never been to Milwaukee, but looking on population density maps, almost all of the hyper-dense tracts (15,000+ PPSM) are in Latino neighborhoods on the southern side of the city. The built vernacular there isn't incredibly urban. It looks like lots of cottage-style detached wood framed structures with a few larger homes mixed in. Many of them are split into two-units, and it looks like in some cases there might be houses in the alleys. But overall, I'm guessing the relatively high population densities come from a mixture of minimal urban blight (e.g., very few vacant lots or abandoned buildings) and a high number of people per household.

If other Midwestern cities besides Chicago and Milwaukee experienced substantial Hispanic migration, we'd probably see unusually dense neighborhoods of this sort in them as well.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:15 PM
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SSP sponsored field trip to Milwaukee is OBVIOUSLY in order.
and we'll all be way too fucking drunk to learn or remember a damn thing.

perhaps that's how milwaukee maintains her mystery.

MILWAUKEE!
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If a Pizza is baked in a forest, and no one is around to eat it, is it still delicious?
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  #219  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:18 PM
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It's not a strawman. I summarized what you and Crawford said. I did not make the argument to begin with.
Your summary was so glib, cartoonish, and yes, "strawman-like", how are we to respond?

We aren't arguing controversial points here. If you believe that my 13-month- old son consumes in the same manner as a 20-something professional, I don't know what to say.

They count exactly the same towards neighborhood density calculations, yet my son is highly unlikely to be seen visiting the local hookah bar at 4 AM anytime soon.
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  #220  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:19 PM
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