Canadian Premier League

[harls]

Originally Posted by esquire

But what would OSEG be losing by moving into the CPL?

Apparently all of next season

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm sure someone told me this before but I can't remember... what was OSEG's reason for being so obstinate about moving the Fury into the CPL in the first place?

I mean, it's not like the USL is MLS where you have big dollars and serious brand equity built up... no one expects the Montreal Impact to move to the CPL, for example. But what would OSEG be losing by moving into the CPL?

A few reasons.

OSEG had indicated they felt USL was a more stable league to be a part of than the upstart CPL, given the success (or failure?) rate of every single Canadian-only pro soccer league in the past 30-40 years.

And of course there is catering to the classic Canadian mindset that leagues with American teams (even if it's Norfolk VA and Rochester NY, or even Shreveport LA, right?) seem more "big time" to Canadian sports fans than playing Canadian cities like Halifax.

On the latter point in the Ottawa thread it's been mentioned that Ottawa fans will appreciate playing Canadian CPL cities as they will be able to more easily build up rivalries.

My guess that it's probably neither here nor there and that Fury attendance in the CPL will remain relatively stable (relative to USL).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm sure someone told me this before but I can't remember... what was OSEG's reason for being so obstinate about moving the Fury into the CPL in the first place?

Fury had cost-certainty by staying in the USL and were fearful of losing money in the CPL. Rather than getting in at the ground floor they wanted to remove risk by potentially joining CPL further down the road after the league has been built and created. CSA, and to a lesser extent CONCACAF, took issue with this.

OSEG/Fury officials were also very anti-CPL from the get go for whatever reason that's never really been revealed.

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course there is catering to the classic Canadian mindset that leagues with American teams (even if it's Norfolk VA and Rochester NY, or even Shreveport LA, right?) seem more "big time" to Canadian sports fans than playing Canadian cities like Halifax.

I take great issue with this. Nobody at Fury games really cared where the visiting teams were from, especially because they were from very small markets. Canadian rivals like Toronto or Halifax would have more cache than Charlotte or Rochester.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by harls

Apparently all of next season

Does this necessarily have to be the case? If OSEG already has the infrastructure to support a soccer team including the all important accounts, why couldn't they get a CPL team rolling for 2020?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Does this necessarily have to be the case? If OSEG already has the infrastructure to support a soccer team including the all important accounts, why couldn't they get a CPL team rolling for 2020?

Because they would seemingly prefer to shutter rather than join CPL. There were rumours in 2019 about CPL offering to alter their roster and pay structure to allow Fury's entrance and OSEG presumably turned them down.

[esquire]

^ So weird. Good thing CSA/CONCACAF straightened them out.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ So weird. Good thing CSA/CONCACAF straightened them out.

Agreed.

There have been rumours of another ownership group in Ottawa being interested in CPL so we'll have to wait and see how things fall for 2021. I'd rather CPL avoid having another team in an over-sized, mostly-empty stadium but a facility is a facility at the end of the day.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I take great issue with this. Nobody at Fury games really cared where the visiting teams were from, especially because they were from very small markets. Canadian rivals like Toronto or Halifax would have more cache than Charlotte or Rochester.

The end result of what each of us is saying is fairly similar. As I mentioned I don't see the Fury's CPL attendance being that different from its USL attendance. The Toronto and Montreal rivals (if any) won't be TFC and the Impact, and few people are gonna say "woo-hoo Halifax is in town... let's show those Bluenosers who's boss!" and buy significantly more tickets that they would not have bought for games against Rochester or Charlotte.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Agreed.

There have been rumours of another ownership group in Ottawa being interested in CPL so we'll have to wait and see how things fall for 2021. I'd rather CPL avoid having another team in an over-sized, mostly-empty stadium but a facility is a facility at the end of the day.

Is it really that big of a deal? Not that I'm a frequent attender of CPL games having been to one game, but I liked that it was at IG Field which is a very comfortable and spacious venue, and feels very professional. I'd much prefer going to a game there than at, say, the Ralph Cantafio Soccer Complex which is super bare bones. At the end of the day 4,000 fans is 4,000 fans and putting them into a smaller venue isn't going to make it feel like some kind of big time event.

The only other soccer match I attended this past year was a Danish first division game that was in a small stadium with a crowd size similar to the Valour FC match and it's not like the atmosphere was somehow amazing by comparison...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is it really that big of a deal? Not that I'm a frequent attender of CPL games having been to one game, but I liked that it was at IG Field which is a very comfortable and spacious venue, and feels very professional. I'd much prefer going to a game there than at, say, the Ralph Cantafio Soccer Complex which is super bare bones. At the end of the day 4,000 fans is 4,000 fans and putting them into a smaller venue isn't going to make it feel like some kind of big time event.

The only other soccer match I attended this past year was a Danish first division game that was in a small stadium with a crowd size similar to the Valour FC match and it's not like the atmosphere was somehow amazing by comparison...

The other options in Ottawa would be the Carleton and UOttawa football stadiums, seating 3500 and 4000 respectively.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The end result of what each of us is saying is fairly similar. As I mentioned I don't see the Fury's CPL attendance being that different from its USL attendance. The Toronto and Montreal rivals (if any) won't be TFC and the Impact, and few people are gonna say "woo-hoo Halifax is in town... let's show those Bluenosers who's boss!" and buy significantly more tickets that they would not have bought for games against Rochester or Charlotte.

Attendance 2019:

HFX Wanderers FC 6,061

Ottawa Fury FC 4,437

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by q12

Attendance 2019:

HFX Wanderers FC 6,061

Ottawa Fury FC 4,555

Hey it's not meant to be disrespectful towards Halifax. For me personally a rivalry with Halifax is much more fulfilling than one (hypothetical as none exists) with San Jose or Columbus.

I will happily stand corrected but for now my view is that the Fury's attendance will stay about the same when they join the CPL.

But it's still true that in a place like Ottawa which has NHL hockey a good share of the sports fan base thinks that playing against Halifax (or even Regina) is beneath them, while revelling in the awesomeness of locking horns with places like Buffalo and Carolina (Raleigh? Charlotte? Greensboro? Can't remember...) I know that JHikka disagrees because it's not often expressed as bluntly as I do on here, but it's clearly there in the subconscious.

That said, Ottawa isn't nearly as bad as some other Canadian cities. But that's a whole other debate.

[esquire]

^ I think that kind of blinded by the bright lights thing exists at the top tiers, I'm sure it would be tough for, say, Whitecaps fans to swallow not playing vs. Portland, Seattle, LA, New York anymore and having to content themselves with games against Victoria, Winnipeg, Calgary and Hamilton. But I just can't see the USL having that same kind of cachet... it has basically an AHL lineup of cities with a mix of small markets and secondary teams in larger markets.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hey it's not meant to be disrespectful towards Halifax. For me personally a rivalry with Halifax is much more fulfilling than one (hypothetical as none exists) with San Jose or Columbus.

I was just teasing. If Ottawa was in the CPL, I believe it could form a decent rivalry with Halifax.

In the summer there is nearly 15 non-stop flights a day between the two cities with very cheap prices on three different airlines (Flying time only 1 hour 30m ~900km). I think you would find supporters groups would travel between the two cities often.

[esquire]

Thinking the whole "settling" for domestic competition angle through a little farther, is this even as much of an issue in soccer where clubs get to compete in champions league-type tournaments? I have to admit I thought it was pretty cool to see CPL teams taking on the Canadian MLS clubs. That would get me 100000% more excited than a regular season game vs. Birmingham, Orange County or whatever US locale.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That said, Ottawa isn't nearly as bad as some other Canadian cities. But that's a whole other debate.

Ottawa's a remarkably modest national capital, I guess because of Toronto. Compare it with, say, Calgary, where people have no trouble imagining that they're living in the economic engine of Canada. Or Toronto which is only the #3 largest city within a 700 km radius and sometimes suffers from a tragic big fish little pond effect.

Halifax is the Toronto of Atlantic Canada, and ignores the rest of the region while the rest of the region is often irrationally disdainful in response. But people there think of the city as having a national and international importance level of ~0. Probably actually a bit below where it is; it's in the "more important than normal small city" category, like Wellington, Belfast, or Tallinn. This is interesting since 50-100+ years ago, Canadian cities didn't really measure up to international cities the way they do now.

There's some truth to the idea that the smaller cities have less going on, maybe will have worse sports teams, etc. But Canadians often operate on assumptions and stereotypes. Lots of Canadians have weirdly fleshed out negative mental images of places they have never been to and know nothing about.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But it's still true that in a place like Ottawa which has NHL hockey a good share of the sports fan base thinks that playing against Halifax (or even Regina) is beneath them, while revelling in the awesomeness of locking horns with places like Buffalo and Carolina (Raleigh? Charlotte? Greensboro?

I don't know if I agree with this. Ottawa sports fans have shown no problem supporting the Redblacks and 67's despite their competition coming from Regina and Guelph. The stereotype of the "sports fan with America-envy" doesn't apply as well to Canada's mid sized cities in general, but I don't think it applies to Ottawa at all (it's always had a small town vibe despite its national importance; feels more like Winnipeg than Calgary). At least no more than you'll find anywhere in the country; believe it or not, there are even people in Regina who are diehards for the NFL and think the CFL is minor league.

Plus, in all of this controversy surrounding the Fury, I have not heard a single fan say they'd rather stay in the USL because it means they'll play teams from San Diego, Nashville or San Antonio. I've only ever heard positives about the possibility of playing more Canadian teams.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I don't know if I agree with this. Ottawa sports fans have shown no problem supporting the Redblacks and 67's despite their competition coming from Regina and Guelph. The stereotype of the "sports fan with America-envy" doesn't apply as well to Canada's mid sized cities.

.

It exists in all Canadian cities. I agree (and mentioned) that it's less common in Ottawa than in other places.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Plus, in all of this controversy surrounding the Fury, I have not heard a single fan say they'd rather stay in the USL because it means they'll play teams from San Diego, Nashville or San Antonio. I've only ever heard positives about the possibility of playing more Canadian teams.

I haven't heard Fury fans say nothing about anything, really.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is it really that big of a deal? Not that I'm a frequent attender of CPL games having been to one game, but I liked that it was at IG Field which is a very comfortable and spacious venue, and feels very professional. I'd much prefer going to a game there than at, say, the Ralph Cantafio Soccer Complex which is super bare bones. At the end of the day 4,000 fans is 4,000 fans and putting them into a smaller venue isn't going to make it feel like some kind of big time event.

I think there's a big difference between going to a match at a stadium that is meant your team as opposed to a stadium which is very much not for your team. IG Field, THF, and TD Place are very much sized towards CFL teams - a smaller soccer team playing in any of these venues just feels temporary, to say nothing of the awful atmosphere of 4,000 people in a stadium fit for five times that amount. Those stadiums are not CPL stadiums and they weren't built for CPL in mind. I'd much rather Halifax or Victoria for a stadium than THF or TD Place. I think the only Fury games that were remotely atmospheric were when TFC visited (ie a Canadian rival).

I had the same issues when I watched NYCFC at Yankee Stadium - it's very much a baseball venue not fit for soccer and it will never feel like a true home for NYCFC.

Originally Posted by esquire

The only other soccer match I attended this past year was a Danish first division game that was in a small stadium with a crowd size similar to the Valour FC match and it's not like the atmosphere was somehow amazing by comparison...

But they at least play at a stadium that is meant for them, you know? Playing in a giant over-sized gridiron stadium kills any atmosphere and feels temporary by comparison.

It's not really the quality of the stadium i'm moaning about but more the intended purpose of the facility itself. Yeah, it's great that the facilities are nice, but i'm the only guy sitting in my row fit for 20 when I go to Fury games, and i'm greeted by a giant stand across from me which is sat empty.