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  #15481  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
id be more down about all the vacant lots to the east of this than the PHA houses. I think its hilarious that out of all the unsightly issues in North Philadelphia this is what some find the most offensive and problematic. Honestly almost all housing constructed in last 20-30 years looks somewhat cheap and out of place in older neighborhoods, regardless of who built it.
I think the issue isn't that it looks cheap, it's that it's suburban (i.e. not urban). This looks like Bensalem dropped into the core of Philadelphia.
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  #15482  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 5:24 PM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is online now
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^ It’s style is a sore point for urban lovers, yes. Especially in that location. My understanding is it was rent to own (not sure if that’s true or not), and it’s been mostly well-kept...especially since I think they replaced crime heavy high rises?
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  #15483  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ScreamShatter View Post
^ It’s style is a sore point for urban lovers, yes. Especially in that location. My understanding is it was rent to own (not sure if that’s true or not), and it’s been mostly well-kept...especially since I think they replaced crime heavy high rises?
When you look at the reasoning to why they built it, it was genius.

Give people who have never had a suburban lifestyle or house/yard a chance to see that life.

Now the areas they chose could have been used for more density but I would rather choose happy people and housing that works rather then building skyscrapers and displacing these same people.

And the areas are well kept as far as I see when im in the areas.

I wonder what the data shows on the improvements after they built them VS before.
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  #15484  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 7:10 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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I feel like they were one of John Street's pet projects.

They were built at a time when the city was (still) shrinking and there was a belief that the population loss would never stop. There was also a belief among some that the only way the city could compete was by being MORE suburban, not less, because folks were leaving for the suburbs.

I think it made sense at the time. Obviously it no longer does.

The good news is that many of these homes are privately owned. As these are unusually large lots, it's a matter of time before homeowners start selling to developers (hopefully at huge profits for themselves) and they start to come down for more dense multi-family homes or bigger SFH that take up more of the lot.
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  #15485  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post

The good news is that many of these homes are privately owned. As these are unusually large lots, it's a matter of time before homeowners start selling to developers (hopefully at huge profits for themselves) and they start to come down for more dense multi-family homes or bigger SFH that take up more of the lot.

I hadn't thought about that. Sure, if you can plop 3 to 4 row homes on a single lot, that equals big bucks. You do see this dynamic happening in Roxborough and some section of the NE.

I came across this recently on Verree Road in Fox Chase.


https://northeasttimes.com/2020/03/1...icting-hotels/
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  #15486  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 8:35 PM
iamrobk iamrobk is offline
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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
I hadn't thought about that. Sure, if you can plop 3 to 4 row homes on a single lot, that equals big bucks. You do see this dynamic happening in Roxborough and some section of the NE.

I came across this recently on Verree Road in Fox Chase.
In parts of Francisville there are single family homes that were built as owner-occupied low-income housing back in the 80's that had 30 year restrictions in the deed on demolishing them. Once they started expiring in the early 2010's, homeowners began making big $$$ by selling them to developers who demolish them and build multi-family condo buildings in their place.

Also, I believe 3rd&Brown is correct on the history of those particular single-family homes.
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  #15487  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 9:27 PM
philly_account12 philly_account12 is offline
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I feel like they were one of John Street's pet projects.
There were two phases of PHA housing here. The redevelopment that left what we see today took place in 2003 so you're probably right (Street was mayor 2000-2008).

Quote:
When you look at the reasoning to why they built it, it was genius.

Give people who have never had a suburban lifestyle or house/yard a chance to see that life.

Now the areas they chose could have been used for more density but I would rather choose happy people and housing that works rather then building skyscrapers and displacing these same people.

And the areas are well kept as far as I see when im in the areas.

I wonder what the data shows on the improvements after they built them VS before.
I agree that the current iteration is decently maintained but the entire saga is a textbook example of terrible urban planning. The original Richard Allen Homes were one of Philly's first federal housing projects and were built during the Great Depression. This version of the project actually looked okay (check out link below).

http://www.philaplace.org/media/476/

The big issue though is the project displaced more people than it housed and completely demolished a largely black neighborhood to do it. The federal/local government then spent 40 years cutting funding for maintenance/infrastructure while promoting the war on drugs (most abandoned apartments were left unsealed by PHA and sewage/electric infrastructure was allowed to fall apart) to the point where the whole thing needed to be torn down. The new suburban style housing was built in 2003 and has been fairly successful but its hard to argue that the neighborhood wouldn't be better off today if the original project wasn't built. The suburban version houses fewer than half of the people the original project did (which itself displaced people from the neighborhood). Its easy to wonder if Poplar today would look similar to Francisville (or even NoLibs?) if both projects never happened.

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In parts of Francisville there are single family homes that were built as owner-occupied low-income housing back in the 80's that had 30 year restrictions in the deed on demolishing them.
Oooof. If thats the case for these PHA homes it's at least another 10 years before they can start to be sold.
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  #15488  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 9:37 PM
philly_account12 philly_account12 is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
id be more down about all the vacant lots to the east of this than the PHA houses.
What vacant lots? Other than the lots where phase 2 of this project are supposed to take place there is one lot for sale at 8th & Girard and everything else is park space or church space
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  #15489  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
I think the issue isn't that it looks cheap, it's that it's suburban (i.e. not urban). This looks like Bensalem dropped into the core of Philadelphia.
philly has housing like this all over, not that its a huge % but it exists. Where I live you can walk 5 blocks and walk past 1100 sf rowhouses, and 1400-1800 sf twins and single homes all in close proximity. Im not sure what rule there is tha says you can only have one type of housing in a neighborhood and please dont talk about density because when this stuff was built this area was anything but dense. If only they couldve seen 20 years into the future and known a crumbling neighborhood that had zero hipster interest would eventually become a place for 1800/month apartments.
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  #15490  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 1:08 AM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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What vacant lots? Other than the lots where phase 2 of this project are supposed to take place there is one lot for sale at 8th & Girard and everything else is park space or church space
east of the viaduct there are still vacant lots and many of them are still being dumped on. Its decreasing slowly but this area is not exactly rittenhouse square. Not to mention the dilapidated existing housing that sits on the same blocks with a lot of the new construction. The area between broad and the viaduct is relatively devoid of vacant property, but there is still quite a bit on the east side as well as numerous one story warehouse structures all around the Poplar. My point is there is still work to do around here and I dont find these 20-25 year old homes to be the biggest eyesore around. Even Girard just east of the viaduct has a ways to go.
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  #15491  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 1:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I feel like they were one of John Street's pet projects.

They were built at a time when the city was (still) shrinking and there was a belief that the population loss would never stop. There was also a belief among some that the only way the city could compete was by being MORE suburban, not less, because folks were leaving for the suburbs.

I think it made sense at the time. Obviously it no longer does.

The good news is that many of these homes are privately owned. As these are unusually large lots, it's a matter of time before homeowners start selling to developers (hopefully at huge profits for themselves) and they start to come down for more dense multi-family homes or bigger SFH that take up more of the lot.
How about the people who like living there continue to live there? Is that an option? All the discussion seems focused on how quickly these people and their homes could be replaced which I find interesting and somewhat offensive. If I lived in such a prime location I sure as hell wouldn't sell anytime soon and even if the people do its ridiculous to act like something "better" is going there. 25 year old bland suburban style housing can be replaced by modern cheap looking paneled duplexes with gas meters plastered on the front? That is really going to restore the "classic" north philadelphia look in this area. Not impressed by the PHA stuff and sure as hell wont be impressed by whatever NC replaces the existing stock. People don't need to move just because certain people decided to be concerned about a neighborhood that was of no concern to them 5-10 years ago. Now that some people realize this is close to CC and the area is hot suddenly there is a lot of consternation about the low density of this very small area and people are trying to figure out how you can erase it and make this look like so many other parts of Philly near center city.

There is so much room to build in north philly that the focus needs to be on filling the gaps- not worrying about how quickly we can get 20 year old homes torn down to be replaced with pre fab triplexes.
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  #15492  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 3:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
How about the people who like living there continue to live there? Is that an option? All the discussion seems focused on how quickly these people and their homes could be replaced which I find interesting and somewhat offensive. If I lived in such a prime location I sure as hell wouldn't sell anytime soon and even if the people do its ridiculous to act like something "better" is going there. 25 year old bland suburban style housing can be replaced by modern cheap looking paneled duplexes with gas meters plastered on the front? That is really going to restore the "classic" north philadelphia look in this area. Not impressed by the PHA stuff and sure as hell wont be impressed by whatever NC replaces the existing stock. People don't need to move just because certain people decided to be concerned about a neighborhood that was of no concern to them 5-10 years ago. Now that some people realize this is close to CC and the area is hot suddenly there is a lot of consternation about the low density of this very small area and people are trying to figure out how you can erase it and make this look like so many other parts of Philly near center city.

There is so much room to build in north philly that the focus needs to be on filling the gaps- not worrying about how quickly we can get 20 year old homes torn down to be replaced with pre fab triplexes.
If you're going to chime in to fiercely defend something as stupid as these misplaced houses, can you at least find a way to voice your opinion more succinctly. Did this really require three posts and 1000 words?

It's not just about density. It disrupts the rhythm of the city. It calls out in big bold letters, "something strange is going on here. This is the projects!"

Speaking as someone who actually spent some time living in public housing as a child, there were numerous drawbacks, but honestly the thing that has stuck with me the most was the fact that everyone knew i lived in public housing and the shame i felt when i was made fun of for being poor.

Rent to own is great. Green space is great. But nothing that is good about this development is derived from how it looks. They could have built nice row homes here that fit in and had a big green back yards.

This development flies in the face of not just good urban planning but current research on how to best implement public housing. If people enjoy living there, great. They can stay as long as they want. But what possible issue can you have with people hoping owners would rather sell these houses and they can be replaced with something more appropriate for their location?
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  #15493  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 3:49 AM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
How about the people who like living there continue to live there? Is that an option? All the discussion seems focused on how quickly these people and their homes could be replaced which I find interesting and somewhat offensive. If I lived in such a prime location I sure as hell wouldn't sell anytime soon and even if the people do its ridiculous to act like something "better" is going there. 25 year old bland suburban style housing can be replaced by modern cheap looking paneled duplexes with gas meters plastered on the front? That is really going to restore the "classic" north philadelphia look in this area. Not impressed by the PHA stuff and sure as hell wont be impressed by whatever NC replaces the existing stock. People don't need to move just because certain people decided to be concerned about a neighborhood that was of no concern to them 5-10 years ago. Now that some people realize this is close to CC and the area is hot suddenly there is a lot of consternation about the low density of this very small area and people are trying to figure out how you can erase it and make this look like so many other parts of Philly near center city.

There is so much room to build in north philly that the focus needs to be on filling the gaps- not worrying about how quickly we can get 20 year old homes torn down to be replaced with pre fab triplexes.
Where did I say staying was not an option?

I was merely providing history on the development and why it looks the way it does. I even stated it made sense when it was built. And surely some homeowners will sell at some point. None of these things are factually incorrect.

You're internal narrative about how others on this board think including myself is full of assumptions that are way off base.
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  #15494  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 2:19 PM
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Plans for 107-Unit Fishtown 7-Eleven Project Released

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http://www.rising.realestate/plans-f...ject-released/
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  #15495  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Excavation Equipment On Site At 1823 Callowhill Street In Franklintown







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https://phillyyimby.com/2021/05/equi...nter-city.html
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  #15496  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 2:51 PM
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Site Prep Underway At 3.0 University Place In University City







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  #15497  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 2:56 PM
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I think the issue isn't that it looks cheap, it's that it's suburban (i.e. not urban). This looks like Bensalem dropped into the core of Philadelphia.
This is my biggest problem as well. While the private sector does throw up cheap-looking boxes, at least they have some semblances of urbanity. The Richard Allen Homes was a complete swing and a miss in terms of rebuilding the urban fabric. I know that times were different (I was born in 1995 so I don't remember them), but should the PHA really be putting up single-family suburban-style crap when they have a years-long waitlist of applicants?

The PHA is the worst organization in the city by far. When they're not building suburban-style crap at obscene unit costs and unjustly taking properties (ex. most of Sharswood), they're letting other properties rot, thereby bringing down the value of other homes on a block. It's really easy to tell which rowhomes are owned by the PHA.

If I had my way, the PHA wouldn't be able to hold onto land and/or physical properties that they don't have the funds to immediately develop or rehabilitate.
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  #15498  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 3:07 PM
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Exterior Work Continues At 3700 Lancaster Avenue In University City







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  #15499  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 5:24 PM
philly_account12 philly_account12 is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
east of the viaduct there are still vacant lots and many of them are still being dumped on.
Where??? There is a single lot on N. Darien and the lot at 8th & Girard and thats it. The second half of the Poplar project covers more than half the empty space remaining east of the viaduct.

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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
Not to mention the dilapidated existing housing that sits on the same blocks with a lot of the new construction. The area between broad and the viaduct is relatively devoid of vacant property, but there is still quite a bit on the east side as well as numerous one story warehouse structures all around the Poplar.
Again, where? There is a single warehouse on 8th street and I think thats the only one left between the Poplar and 95. Also what dilapidated housing? There is barely any housing in the area. Between the viaduct and 6th street there are 2 parks, 3 schools, 3 churches, and 3 retirement towers. The closest housing is on N. Marshall and it is definitely not dilapidated.

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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
My point is there is still work to do around here and I dont find these 20-25 year old homes to be the biggest eyesore around. Even Girard just east of the viaduct has a ways to go.
You clearly don't live near the area then. New development has been moving closer to the PHA housing from literally every direction. To the east there is the Poplar, new housing on 8th south of Girard, and new apartments at the old medical center on 8th north of Girard. To the north there is mixed use going in on Girard at 10/11th, 12/13th, and just south of Girard on 13th. To the west there are a ton of projects happening/recently completed on North Broad/Ridge and to the south there is a decent amount of infill going on in the only part of the Poplar neighborhood that isn't publicly owned. There should be a ton of mixed use development going on and the neighborhood desperately needs commercial spaces but nothing can happen because its all owned by PHA for now.

There is really not much development space left between Girard and Spring Garden. Fairmount, Francisville, Spring Garden, and Northern Liberties are all dense, walkable, self sufficient neighborhoods with decent transit access. Poplar could be similar but instead its a suburban style food desert. I'm not advocating for razing the whole neighborhood, but it is extremely disappointing that it was built in a way that almost completely prevents infill and doesn't allow for organic growth of the neighborhood/community living there.
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  #15500  
Old Posted May 4, 2021, 5:43 PM
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[QUOTE=summersm343;9269098]Plans for 107-Unit Fishtown 7-Eleven Project Released



What an upgrade. That damn dollar tree next door has been massacred so badly haha. It was called the Jumbo Theater and NIMBYs ruined a good project there back in 2009. Imagine living next to an El stop and saying a venue would be a nuisance... https://www.inquirer.com/philly/hp/n...cert_hall.html



It's crazy that Northern Liberties/Fishtown/South Kensington have developed their own little mid rise downtown before South Broad took off. South Broad from South to Washington is baffling. Between the gas stations, empty lots, Dunkin and Popeyes, it's an ugly area.
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