Kapyong Barracks Discussion

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

What were the expectations? Gas stations are the first thing First Nations develop. Provides revenue and cheap gas for members. Win win.

Plans are here:
https://c7r.1b6.myftpupload.com/wp-c...aster-Plan.pdf

Phase 1 is this piece and then the Canada Lands section in the SW corner of the project.

Seriously, not a lot of margin selling gasoline, not a lot of employment either not that they worry about that!

Guess the whole project will be a larger version of Thunderbird House!

Won't be long before they section off and sell parcels of the land

[cllew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Seriously, not a lot of margin selling gasoline, not a lot of employment either not that they worry about that!

Guess the whole project will be a larger version of Thunderbird House!

Won't be long before they section off and sell parcels of the land

Somebody I knew had a Esso Station in North Kildonan (now closed by Esso) and a gas and go ate all his gas profit for the day. He said he made his money on his car wash and convenience store sales.

[bomberjet]

Ya that's what I've heard. They make money off all the other stuff. Fuel get's you there. Same for Costco or Candian tire. The gas bars are a service. Seems like CT is getting rid of them.

The FN gas stations get their members gas at the reduced price, which saves them all money. They will also like be selling smokes, cannabis, whatever else they can. It will also be a draw to get people to their property. Plans for a casino/event centre on that site as well.

[Justanothermember]

What a farking POS development

So much potential on that land.......lost for good.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

What a farking POS development

So much potential on that land.......lost for good.

Exactly, always the lowest common denominator for FN developments in Manitoba!

Huge chunk of land with loads of potential and they build a fucking gas bar!

[wags_in_the_peg]

stop the negative crap, give it time. yes we been waiting decades, but theres huge plans, we've all seen them. yeah its a gas station now, but there much more coming

https://treaty1.ca/wp-content/upload...aster-Plan.pdf

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

stop the negative crap, give it time. yes we been waiting decades, but theres huge plans, we've all seen them. yeah its a gas station now, but there much more coming

https://treaty1.ca/wp-content/upload...aster-Plan.pdf

Couldn't agree more. This is a huge development that will take time to see it's completion.

I'm honestly not sure what some people wanted to see here. The residential components are greatly needed, and the location of the retail seems to fit well into the area. I suppose people can dream of having a cluster of high-rises, or two or three 20,000 seat arenas and wave pools, but that's just not realistic. The development is going to benefit both the First Nations communities that are developing it and the city. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

DISCLAIMER: I am fully aware no-one suggested "two or three 20,000 seat arenas and wave pools". This is called "hyperbole"; a "purposeful exaggeration" not meant to be taken seriously, used to emphasize or draw attention to a certain element in the narrative.

Learning moment over.

[peg]

Agreed, although not perfect these plans are pretty promising. Give it time.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Couldn't agree more. This is a huge development that will take time to see it's completion.

I'm honestly not sure what some people wanted to see here. The residential components are greatly needed, and the location of the retail seems to fit well into the area. I suppose people can dream of having a cluster of high-rises, or two or three 20,000 seat arenas and wave pools, but that's just not realistic. The development is going to benefit both the First Nations communities that are developing it and the city. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

DISCLAIMER: I am fully aware no-one suggested "two or three 20,000 seat arenas and wave pools". This is called "hyperbole"; a "purposeful exaggeration" not meant to be taken seriously, used to emphasize or draw attention to a certain element in the narrative.

Learning moment over.

I think people were expecting some urbanist paradise on Kenaston. It was unrealistic but they're disappointed that this prime land's first new buildings since the barracks days are a gas station and strip mall, the antithesis of urbanism. People need to realize it was never about urbanism, it's about making money for the Treaty One signatories. The housing comes later.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

I think people were expecting some urbanist paradise on Kenaston. It was unrealistic but they're disappointed that this prime land's first new buildings since the barracks days are a gas station and strip mall, the antithesis of urbanism. People need to realize it was never about urbanism, it's about making money for the Treaty One signatories. The housing comes later.

For real. Hard not to notice how a First Nations group is getting absolutely blasted for building the exact same type of commercial development that everybody else builds everywhere else. Seasons of Tuxedo right next door is all parking lots and box stores and - GASP - a gas station, I don't remember people losing their shit over the "wasted potential" there.

Westport festival is the same crap. They just put up a bunch of box stores and strip malls on Taylor in a much more urban location, nobody seemed to care. But god forbid the natives do it too right?

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

stop the negative crap, give it time. yes we been waiting decades, but theres huge plans, we've all seen them. yeah its a gas station now, but there much more coming

https://treaty1.ca/wp-content/upload...aster-Plan.pdf

Perhaps I've jumped the flag. My understanding was that is was going to be a much sparser and bleaker development than what you have linked, like the original U of M proposal for the gold course. This actually looks better. Did it change over time?

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

For real. Hard not to notice how a First Nations group is getting absolutely blasted for building the exact same type of commercial development that everybody else builds everywhere else. Seasons of Tuxedo right next door is all parking lots and box stores and - GASP - a gas station, I don't remember people losing their shit over the "wasted potential" there.

Westport festival is the same crap. They just put up a bunch of box stores and strip malls on Taylor in a much more urban location, nobody seemed to care. But god forbid the natives do it too right?

Sadly, I've suspected this as well.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

For real. Hard not to notice how a First Nations group is getting absolutely blasted for building the exact same type of commercial development that everybody else builds everywhere else. Seasons of Tuxedo right next door is all parking lots and box stores and - GASP - a gas station, I don't remember people losing their shit over the "wasted potential" there.

Westport festival is the same crap. They just put up a bunch of box stores and strip malls on Taylor in a much more urban location, nobody seemed to care. But god forbid the natives do it too right?

I think there is a higher expectation out of government developments generally. This is a First Nation's government project not a private development, so I don't think money should not be the highest consideration. Governments should not compete with private businesses, generally. So unless they can provide something better than a private developer in order to serve their constituents I don't they should be in the development game.

When the province developed the Bridgwater neighbourhoods, they initially promised something better than a private development and then cut it back later. So the province also failed on their development. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by plrh

I think there is a higher expectation out of government developments generally. This is a First Nation's government project not a private development, so I don't think money should not be the highest consideration. Governments should not compete with private businesses, generally. So unless they can provide something better than a private developer in order to serve their constituents I don't they should be in the development game.

When the province developed the Bridgwater neighbourhoods, they initially promised something better than a private development and then cut it back later. So the province also failed on their development. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But I thought the whole point was to give First Nations income streams and reduce their dependence on gov't funding. This isn't a public park or public amenity. It IS a private development, where the developer is a First Nation and the intent is to generate as much revenue as possible for them. Based on what other private developers choose to build, this is the most profitable and effective way to do that.

Now in general I agree that we should hold ALL developers to higher standards, what's best for their profit margin isn't necessarily best for the city. But it would be pretty unfair to tell this particular developer they can't develop their land that way when everybody else is allowed to.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

But I thought the whole point was to give First Nations income streams and reduce their dependence on gov't funding. This isn't a public park or public amenity. It IS a private development, where the developer is a First Nation and the intent is to generate as much revenue as possible for them. Based on what other private developers choose to build, this is the most profitable and effective way to do that.

Now in general I agree that we should hold ALL developers to higher standards, what's best for their profit margin isn't necessarily best for the city. But it would be pretty unfair to tell this particular developer they can't develop their land that way when everybody else is allowed to.

I can agree with that. I didn't know that its purpose was solely to generate income. Not much different than Bridgwater.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by plrh

I can agree with that. I didn't know that its purpose was solely to generate income. Not much different than Bridgwater.

I mean I guess it's a bit of both, some of the recreational & cultural components they're planning are more like amenities for their community members. But yeah my understanding of urban reserves is that typically they're trying to develop land as a revenue stream for their bands.

[Kinguni]

The best use for the land where the gas station is going is a gas station, as that's what the CAF had there before.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

The best use for the land where the gas station is going is a gas station, as that's what the CAF had there before.

I still think the CAF should have kept a parcel for a new super-armoury like Denison Armoury or Debney Armoury. The state of Minto Armouries is atrocious and LCol Harcus Strachan Armoury is getting too small for the two lodger units. Strachan Armoury is 100% original and would be great for a museum but modern facilities are really needed for Army Reserve personnel. Maintenance bays, quartermaster space, classrooms, barracks, messes, hangars, etc.

[rrskylar]

Between Kapyong, U of M Southwood golf course land and the Forks land all sit waiting at glacial speed for anything to actually transpire!