Hyperloops in Canada

Jaws · #1 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 12:52 PM**

Province signs pact with firm seeking to build 1,000 km/h link between Calgary and Edmonton
High-speed rail connecting Calgary and Edmonton has long been a dream of those seeking to solidify economic development in one of Canada's prime intercity corridors

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-e44b86fc7fdf/

Bye YEG but it’s really nothing but a pipe dream.

wave46 · #2 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Province signs pact with firm seeking to build 1,000 km/h link between Calgary and Edmonton
High-speed rail connecting Calgary and Edmonton has long been a dream of those seeking to solidify economic development in one of Canada's prime intercity corridors

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-e44b86fc7fdf/

Bye YEG

Um?

Given that the fastest trains in experimental fashion have just cracked 600 km/h (on test tracks) and now we're going to connect two cities of just over a million with a train that is going to do Mach 0.8? The Shanghai Maglev - the fastest commercial train - has a top speed of ~430 km/h.

Somebody just walked away with a pile of the province's money and sold them a pipe dream.

milomilo · #3 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 1:06 PM**

Lol! I though people had stopped believing the bullshit hyperloop lie years ago. Not the UCP!

Truenorth00 · #4 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 1:31 PM**

Vacuum tube transport has been around as a concept for generations. And yet the gullible fall for it, after Musk pushes the Hyperloop in an effort to get CalHSR cancelled, a real threat to his business.

Truenorth00 · #5 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 1:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46

Somebody just walked away with a pile of the province's money and sold them a pipe dream.

More like the UCP bought some publicity that makes them look forward thinking (their target market is Albertans after all....) while doing absolutely nothing to rail improve intercity rail.

Even if the tech worked, common sense tells you that putting your Maglev train in a vacuum tube is not going to be cheap.

Nouvellecosse · #6 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 1:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46

Um?

Somebody just walked away with a pile of the province's money and sold them a pipe dream.

Based on the article, I'm not sure what makes you think the company received a pile of the province's money. Can you clarify?

Quote:

Originally Posted by (linked article)

While the province hasn’t agreed to commit any taxpayer funds to the proposal, it has agreed to work toward finding a right-of-way for the elevated hyperloop, expediting approvals and supplying relevant transportation data.

Why would we not try to assist them? They didn’t come looking for a handout, said McIver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by (linked article)

The study could commence early next year, said Toronto-headquartered TransPod CEO Sebastien Gendron, who called the MOU with the province “an excellent first step” that will encourage private investors waiting in the wings.

swimmer_spe · #7 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 2:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yet your priority list includes, "4) Toronto-Chicago" and "5) Halifax-Boston" with "Winnipeg-St Paul" also mentioned?
.

Having better connections to the USA is a good idea. The existing 3, prior to Covid were running at least daily. The 4, 5, 6 all are between major cities and have intermediate communities with decent populations. The Atlantic, although it may sound good, doesn't bring much to the ridership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Province signs pact with firm seeking to build 1,000 km/h link between Calgary and Edmonton
High-speed rail connecting Calgary and Edmonton has long been a dream of those seeking to solidify economic development in one of Canada's prime intercity corridors

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-e44b86fc7fdf/

Bye YEG but it’s really nothing but a pipe dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46

Um?

Given that the fastest trains in experimental fashion have just cracked 600 km/h (on test tracks) and now we're going to connect two cities of just over a million with a train that is going to do Mach 0.8? The Shanghai Maglev - the fastest commercial train - has a top speed of ~430 km/h.

Somebody just walked away with a pile of the province's money and sold them a pipe dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Vacuum tube transport has been around as a concept for generations. And yet the gullible fall for it, after Musk pushes the Hyperloop in an effort to get CalHSR cancelled, a real threat to his business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

More like the UCP bought some publicity that makes them look forward thinking (their target market is Albertans after all....) while doing absolutely nothing to rail improve intercity rail.

Even if the tech worked, common sense tells you that putting your Maglev train in a vacuum tube is not going to be cheap.

If Alberta wants to dump money into this, why not. Maybe it'll be successful. Maybe it'll flop. I know one thing, you'll never know till you try. Right now it is a 20km section to test it. That isn't much different than the Skytrain's Expo. It showed the LIM is a great technology, and that even then, driverless trains are possible. With all the complaining about the existing ROWs in that area, at least this will solve that issue.

I for one, look forward to hearing about the success or failure of this test.

Dengler Avenue · #8 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 2:10 PM**

I saw the news too. Alberta’s going big or going home.

roger1818 · #9 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 3:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Even if the tech worked, common sense tells you that putting your Maglev train in a vacuum tube is not going to be cheap.

Not only that, but there are some very significant safety concerns. It is one thing to seal a 76m airplane fuselage from leaks, it is totally another to seal a 300km tube.

You also have to look at the potential consequences if a leak does occur. In an airplane the cabin will depressurize (admittedly a violent action, but most passengers will survive) and the oxygen masks will drop. The plane will continue flying at the same speed and direction though, allowing the pilot to land the plane as soon as it is safe to do so.

With a hyperloop, if there is a leak, a wall of air will travel through the tube at a very high speed. If the train is travelling anywhere close to its top speed of 1000 km/h when it hits it, the capsule will be torn to shreds, killing everyone onboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Vacuum tube transport has been around as a concept for generations. And yet the gullible fall for it, after Musk pushes the Hyperloop in an effort to get CalHSR cancelled, a real threat to his business.

The dream of hyperloops are a way of distracting people from affordable improvements to rail transport.

Truenorth00 · #10 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 4:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

With a hyperloop, if there is a leak, a wall of air will travel through the tube at a very high speed. If the train is travelling anywhere close to its top speed of 1000 km/h when it hits it, the capsule will be torn to shreds, killing everyone onboard.

Am an aerospace engineer. Fully aware of the dangers, technical challenges and economic feasibility of this thing. But it's tiresome debating Musk fans who are religious about anything he does.

While on exchange, I showed the Hyperloop idea to my NASA aerodynamicist prof. He was pretty amused. But fascinated that it was good marketing on the part of Musk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

The dream of hyperloops are a way of distracting people from affordable improvements to rail transport.

He literally launched it as an effort to get CalHSR cancelled. He has a history of opposition to mass transport that has been called out by urbanists:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ansit-succeeds

Given that history and his own unwillingness to put his own money and time into the idea, unlike every one of his other ideas, it's pretty clear this was a distraction. Not a sincere effort at evolving a new form if transport. Heck, he's put more effort and money into building tunnels than he has Hyperloops.

Mister F · #11 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 5:55 PM**

His tunnels are pretty much vapourware too. Seeing which of his businesses are legit and which are distractions can be a challenge.

Truenorth00 · #12 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 5:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F

His tunnels are pretty much vapourware too. Seeing which of his businesses are legit and which are distractions can be a challenge.

Perhaps. But it's telling that he didn't put any of his money and time into Hyperloop. And this is a guy who sold flamethrowers on a whim.

swimmer_spe · #13 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Am an aerospace engineer. Fully aware of the dangers, technical challenges and economic feasibility of this thing. But it's tiresome debating Musk fans who are religious about anything he does.

While on exchange, I showed the Hyperloop idea to my NASA aerodynamicist prof. He was pretty amused. But fascinated that it was good marketing on the part of Musk.

That explains a lot more as to your comments.
BTW, what course do they teach to design something that works opposite of how everything has been done since Kitty hawk?

Truenorth00 · #14 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That explains a lot more as to your comments.
BTW, what course do they teach to design something that works opposite of how everything has been done since Kitty hawk?

Do you think Fluid Mechanics works differently in a tube for some reason?

milomilo · #15 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That explains a lot more as to your comments.
BTW, what course do they teach to design something that works opposite of how everything has been done since Kitty hawk?

What?

You don't need to be an engineer to understand the technical reasons it is unworkable, and on top of that there are plenty of obvious lies also. Like that it would be cheaper than rail. How? It's a more complicated, higher tolerance piece of equipment than a railway, and it has to be straighter. There's no way that it can be built for less cost than HSR.

swimmer_spe · #16 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Do you think Fluid Mechanics works differently in a tube for some reason?

In a sealed tube?
Did you know you could have a ping pong ball break the sound barrier? It can be done in a sealed tube. It no longer is fluid dynamics when it is a vacuum.

Truenorth00 · #17 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In a sealed tube?
Did you know you could have a ping pong ball break the sound barrier? It can be done in a sealed tube. It no longer is fluid dynamics when it is a vacuum.

1) How do you think a vacuum is maintained?

2) What do you think happens when Bubba takes his rifle and takes a shot at the Hyperloop tube? Or an earthquake or thermal expansion causes a leak? This question is why certifying this to carry humans is a long time away.

swimmer_spe · #18 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

What?

You don't need to be an engineer to understand the technical reasons it is unworkable, and on top of that there are plenty of obvious lies also. Like that it would be cheaper than rail. How? It's a more complicated, higher tolerance piece of equipment than a railway, and it has to be straighter. There's no way that it can be built for less cost than HSR.

It might be cheaper when including the lifecycle costs. AB is fairly easy to work with. There isn't a reason that it couldn't be fairly straight.

Boeing learned that cheap isn't the solution. Maybe HSR shouldn't be done cheap. Mind you, if the claims are true, which in theory it sounds good, current HSR technology cannot match or beat the speeds that this is capable of.

And if no one wants a slow unreliable Via train, then,, by all means, spend the Billions, possibly Trillions on it.

Truenorth00 · #19 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's a more complicated, higher tolerance piece of equipment than a railway, and it has to be straighter. There's no way that it can be built for less cost than HSR.

Exactly.

I see Hyperloop as a Rohrschach test of gullibility.

Thinking about it for more than 5 minutes with some high school level physics would let you come to the conclusion that it's a pipedream.

swimmer_spe · #20 Posted **Aug 25, 2020, 9:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) How do you think a vacuum is maintained?

2) What do you think happens when Bubba takes his rifle and takes a shot at the Hyperloop tube? Or an earthquake or thermal expansion causes a leak? This question is why certifying this to carry humans is a long time away.

1) Lots of air handling units.

3) The same thing that happens when that happens on regular rail/airplanes.
The tube won't be paper thin. It needs to combat the crushing forces of the atmosphere on it. That will mean Bubba can use a Ma Duce on it and it should be fine. Earthquakes are not that prevalent in that area, but they can use the same technology as underwater tunnels in places like Japan to shield it. Thermal expansion? You mean like what happened when a bunch of engineers built a bridge that is the only road connection between eastern and western Canada?

You sure you have an engineering degree? Doesn't sound like it.