Small Cities That Offer a Good Urban Experience.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Hali87

It's interesting in that I could see Moncton overtaking Saint John and Fredericton in terms of urban offerings, based on its current trajectory. It seems like there is a lot of new midrise/mixed use construction which is enlarging the walkable downtown area quite a bit, while DT Fredericton and UT Saint John are more "established" but not growing as quickly (in terms of new buildings). It feels like a switch was flipped in recent years and Moncton went from being very suburban-focused to very downtown-focused, and the demand seems to be there for substantially more downtown retail, etc.

Sydney and the surrounding parts of Cape Breton are another interesting case study, like Saint John a lot of the most densely built-up parts are a bit under-used/under-populated but the area is basically a cluster of small towns (total pop. ~100,000) each with their own reasonably dense, walkable downtown. It's the kind of place that would check a lot of the boxes if another 20,000 or so people moved (back) into these denser areas, but as of now the way things are dispersed across the region, it's not really a practical place to get by without a car, etc. I think within the next 10-20 years it will bounce back as a relatively attractive city to live/work in, and Sydney proper seems to be focusing a lot on reinvigorating its downtown (new NSCC campus, etc).

On the other side of the country, I'd mention Kamloops as a contender. It has quite a bit more heft than the Nelson/Revelstoke/Kaslo type interior towns, an interesting, walkable downtown, a walkable secondary commercial node (Tranquille, across the river from downtown) but has a "practical place to live" rather than touristy feel to it.

Vernon is another interior city that might fit the bill. The central parts felt a bit more "urban" to me than nearby Kelowna, despite Kelowna having some taller buildings. I supposed it depends what you're looking for, but I found that (relative to each other) Vernon had more of a "small city" feel whereas Kelowna had more of a "large resort town" feel. I'm not sure how the amenities compare within walkable parts but I think I would have given the edge to Vernon when I lived in that part of the country, about 10 years ago. I imagine things have changed a bit since then.

I agree with you on Moncton - when I was there a couple years ago the main strip was pretty good with some great potential behind that for infill with the existing churches, historical residential and established commercial buildings.

Also feel the same about Kelowna as the Vancouver developers move in. If they’re not careful it will end up feeling like a large resort town, a sort of mini Las Vegas North. The desert vibe, large scale buildings with giant above ground parking podiums but terrible street level pedestrian interaction, buildings that once seemed ambitious at the proposal stage that end up a bit cheap and tacky looking as the developer cuts costs after approvals are received.. On the other hand, hopefully it becomes a really dense interesting and vibrant downtown with great store fronts fuelled by a growing downtown population.

Now does Sidney BC qualify? It’s part of the Capital Regional District and is about 30-35 minutes from downtown Victoria. For a population of 12,000 it has everything you would need, so most people who live out there never need to go to Victoria. Three full size grocery stores downtown (ironic that smaller Canadian cities usually have far better downtown grocery store options than larger cities), not to mention pretty much everything else much larger cities have. A little boring and full of old people, but a walkable downtown connected to a nice oceanfront and boardwalk. Oh it also has a least 4 very highly rated independent bookstores - and previously the Globe and Mail called it Canada’s bookstore capital.

[flar]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I would actually place Charlottetown and Fredericton above Saint John. SJ is larger, and looks a lot more impressive, but in terms of urban offerings on the ground, it's actually got less going on. As mentioned above, though, it's moving in the right direction and has improved in the past few years. It still, it remains for me one of those cities that's more about its future potential than its present reality.

At first I was thinking more in terms of the built form, but I would agree on the vibrancy front. I was blown away by the old buildings when I first drove into Saint John, but it reminded me a lot of Hamilton in terms of its current state of development.

[TorontoDrew]

Never been but on my list to visit is Whitehorse. It looks like a great little downtown.

[flar]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Completely agree. Chatham is far more compact and pleasant than downtown Sarnia.

Ridgetown, also in Chatham-Kent, is a rather cute little town and surprisingly active mostly due to being a town of just 3000 but having a major University of Guelph campus with 600 students just 5 blocks from the downtown core.

Petrolia with 5000 is also rather pretty and due to it's truly unique urban development, the downtown is easily walkable from most areas.

As far as more substantial centres, Lethbridge is quite vibrant with a busy downtown.

I believe that Ridgetown, Goderich and Petrolia have all laid claim to prettiest town in Canada at various times. Not sure how that is decided, but they are all nice towns.

Since we're now naming smaller places, Amherstburg is getting more vibrant lately. The downtown isn't that dense, but it has multiple streets and some very old buildings, I think some dating to the 1700s.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I could see it becoming more significant over the next 20 years or so as the Halifax commutershed pushes north - there's Clayton Park-style subdivisions going up as far out as Lantz now and at that point Truro is probably a much quicker commute than DT Halifax, when accounting for traffic.

Yes, I think it will be a quasi-satellite of Halifax in the future and eventually be somewhat higher growth. In theory, it could benefit from expanded passenger rail too. It is town-like rather than city-like as you say but some people prefer that.

Another random Truro thing is the Stanfield's factory. A couple of blocks from the middle of town there is a decent-sized Victorian underwear factory, set up in the 1850's, that is still producing stuff.

[MolsonExport]

CIBC: We're about making downtown cores uglier, one building at a time.

[MolsonExport]

Wallaceburg!!

cangeo-media-library

[flar]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Wallaceburg!!

cangeo-media-library

When I was a kid, Wallaceburg was quite a thriving town. The remnants in that picture are on the other side of the river from the actual downtown, there was a pretty substantial core at one time. Unfortunately, very little remains today, even some of the buildings in that photo are gone now.


I actually lived about a block away from there. The Kent Tavern was a strip club for many years, but had music before that. Further down the street was the Wallaceburg Inn, which was very large structure that burned in the early 80's. Across from that was the Glassworker's Union Hall. In later year's, there was the Boardwalk, which also had good music. Aside from that, there were many other business, a few I remember are Louzon's Meats, O'Flynn and Burgess grocery, Zavitz Hardware, a seafood restaurant, a barbershop and a Bank of Montreal. There was a lot of activity back then.

[Fischbob]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I would actually place Charlottetown and Fredericton above Saint John. SJ is larger, and looks a lot more impressive, but in terms of urban offerings on the ground, it's actually got less going on. As mentioned above, though, it's moving in the right direction and has improved in the past few years. It still, it remains for me one of those cities that's more about its future potential than its present reality.

Originally Posted by flar

At first I was thinking more in terms of the built form, but I would agree on the vibrancy front. I was blown away by the old buildings when I first drove into Saint John, but it reminded me a lot of Hamilton in terms of its current state of development.

When did the two of you last visit? If it's been more than a few years you might be surprised by how far things have progressed, at least prior to covid forcing event organizers to adapt to the pandemic or go on hiatus. I don't want to turn this thread into a pissing match between small cities on who's the most vibrant but below are a few highlights of what Saint John has to offer from an arts/culture/sport/nightlife perspective. I should add that the city accomplishes this without the large student/postsecondary base Fredericton has or the large tourist base that Charlottetown enjoys.

- The Uptown has always had a very strong independent restaurant and bar scene, with multiple nightlife hotspots within the historic core. The clubbing scene is admittedly a bit subdued, no doubt due to the lack of a major student population. The Uptown restaurant sector organizes several special culinary events a year, with this year's Burger Week just about to start.

Burger Week participants:

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- As alluded to previously, The Saint John City Market is the oldest continuing farmer's market in Canada and today serves both locals and tourists.

City Market interior:

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- A healthy number of independent commercial art galleries scattered throughout the Uptown as well as public galleries at the Saint John Arts Centre, Saint John Free Public Library and the New Brunswick Museum. The Uptown Business Improvement Association would organize regular gallery hops in pre-pandemic times that were consistently well-attended by the public.

Gallery Hop promo:

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- The New Brunswick Museum deserves an item in its own right as a major cultural institution in the province, covering natural history, cultural history and fine arts.

New Brunswick Museum:

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- A well-developed performing arts scene anchored by the Saint John Theatre Company and the beautifully restored Imperial Theatre. The city hosts an annual Fringe Festival. There are plans in the works to repurpose and expand the historic Saint John County Courthouse into another performance venue and theatre school.

Imperial Theatre:

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Courthouse project:

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- Major junior hockey - Saint John Sea Dogs (QMJHL), playing at TD Station, which also hosts larger touring concerts and events.

TD Station:

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- Major cultural events and installations like Third Shift and the Area 506 Festival, which draw large numbers of people locally and further afield. A full calendar of events and programming on the Market Square Boardwalk throughout the warmer months, including an annual Buskers festival.

Third Shift:

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Area 506:

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Market Square Boardwalk:

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And this is just what I can think of off the top of my head late in the evening.

Like I said above, my intent here is not to jostle for position in some contrived SSP "vibrancy" ranking, but to assert that the city has plenty to offer residents and visitors right now (pandemic notwithstanding). The view of Uptown Saint John as a sleepy collection of underutilized brick buildings with not much going on is a view that's getting increasingly out of date.

[ssiguy]

Poor old Wallaceburg just can't seem to get a break. It's population peaked at about 11,800 in the late 80s and has been declining ever since. It's now just 10,000 which is the same size it was in the mid-60s.

Now it is just a shell of what it once was and even it's ultra cheap housing can't seem to stem the tide.

It also doesn't help that Chatham-Kent is awash with some of the nicest, most historic, and most interesting towns in the country which are also far easier to get to get to from either Windsor or London. Being near so many nice towns, the decay and general ugliness of the town is even more striking and obvious.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by ue

Astoria is great! Small cities like that don't really exist in Canada.

A really good example of how great some of the US small cities are is Marquette in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It has a really fantastic urban core for a city its size. I think it's also done very well for a city that is mostly centred on resource extraction and doesn't really trade on tourism, although the presence of a small university doesn't hurt. Nevertheless, the ambition of the city builders is really evident in some of the buildings - the bank building, county courthouse, cathedral - all show aspirations of it being a much grander place than it actually ended up.

[Innsertnamehere]

Michigan is a funny state to me. It has a ton of great small and mid sized cities - Marquette, Ann Arbor, Holland, etc, but it’s largest city is a hellscape auto oriented place.

Grand Rapids is a great little city - it’s a shame Detroit isn’t just that at 4x the scale.

[le calmar]

Brockville, Kingston, Trois-Rivières, Goderich and Collingwood have solid bones and generally have lively downtowns and plenty of amenities. Places like Saint John look nice too, but I was only 12 the last time I went there so I can’t really judge. When it comes to smaller towns, I would say Kincardine, Picton, Magog, Saint-Hyacinthe, Niagara-on-the-Lake and Cobourg have nice and busy downtowns/main streets, although some tend to be more active in the summer time.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Wallaceburg!!

cangeo-media-library

When and where is this from? I looked on Google Maps, admittedly not for too long, but it didn't look that bad.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/T8isA819LGxncyxq8

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

When and where is this from? I looked on Google Maps, admittedly not for too long, but it didn't look that bad.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/T8isA819LGxncyxq8

from Canadian Geographic Magazine: https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/ar...o-my-home-town

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

When and where is this from? I looked on Google Maps, admittedly not for too long, but it didn't look that bad.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/T8isA819LGxncyxq8

I actually passed through Wallaceburg a couple of years ago on a vacation trip to SW Ontario with my son. We stopped at a Tim Horton's in town for a break.

I agree. I didn't see anything that bad, although we didn't spend any real time in town looking around. Our visit created a minor sensation in the local Timmies though. Some of the burghers at the Timmies noted our NB licence plate, and were baffled as to why we were in town (you're on vacation and you came here!!!).

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Michigan is a funny state to me. It has a ton of great small and mid sized cities - Marquette, Ann Arbor, Holland, etc, but it’s largest city is a hellscape auto oriented place.

Grand Rapids is a great little city - it’s a shame Detroit isn’t just that at 4x the scale.

I wouldn’t want Detroit to be just like a bigger a Grand Rapids, it already has its own very distinct culture and a fabulous DT and other various neighbourhoods.

[circle33]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Wallaceburg!!

cangeo-media-library

The building on the left was my grandfather's furniture store / funeral home until 1970. It should rightfully be mine.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by flar

I believe that Ridgetown, Goderich and Petrolia have all laid claim to prettiest town in Canada at various times. Not sure how that is decided, but they are all nice towns.

Since we're now naming smaller places, Amherstburg is getting more vibrant lately. The downtown isn't that dense, but it has multiple streets and some very old buildings, I think some dating to the 1700s.

Amherstburg is a beautiful historic town with a gorgeous setting, the nicest part of Essex County.

[flar]

Originally Posted by circle33

The building on the left was my grandfather's furniture store / funeral home until 1970. It should rightfully be mine.

It was a Volkswagen dealership when I lived there in the early 80s