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  #2001  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
There are lots of cars in Moncton at Costco, Bass Pro Shops, and Champlain Place from all three Maritime provinces too. There have been (literally) bus loads of fans coming up to the Avenir Centre from Halifax to watch the Mooseheads play the Wildcats this season so far. I think some of this is curiosity about our new arena. There were also been a lot of out of province people who came to the UFC event the other night too.

It goes both ways...........
Mooseheads fans went to Moncton because the Mooseheads were on an unprecedented 15 game road trip due to construction at the Scotiabank Centre. The Moose just had it's home opener on Saturday with 10,000 in attendance.

There will always be plates from Nova Scotia and P.E.I. in Moncton because Amherst, NS and P.E.I. are close to Moncton.

Last time I checked there was a Bass Pro/Cabela's in Halifax, multiple Costco's and several shopping malls. I honestly do not know anyone from Halifax that travel to Moncton to shop.

I think half of Moncton and P.E.I. are probably at IKEA every weekend though based on the license plates in that parking lot.

So it doesn't really go both ways on the same scale.........
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  #2002  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:01 PM
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Yeah, "it goes both ways" elides a pretty important part of the reality on the ground.

I wonder how this would look if Ontario were talked about in the same way. Ontarians all like to visit Ottawa, and Hamilton is a cool historic city. Lots of people like to go shopping in London. Also, there's this other place called Toronto, and some people like to visit there, but you know, it goes both ways..
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  #2003  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:02 PM
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Mooseheads fans went to Moncton because the Mooseheads were on an unprecedented 15 game road trip due to construction at the Scotiabank Centre. The Moose just had it's home opener on Saturday with 10,000 in attendance.
That's a very good point. I didn't think of that.

I still think there was curiosity over the Avenir Centre too.

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There will always be plates from Nova Scotia and P.E.I. in Moncton because Amherst, NS and P.E.I. are close to Moncton.
I didn't specifically state that those were Haligonians coming up to Moncton. I just said PEI and NS plates. And, yes, Moncton is more convenient to shop in than Halifax for about half the region's population.

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Last time I checked there was a Bass Pro/Cabela's in Halifax, multiple Costco's and several shopping malls. I honestly do not know anyone from Halifax that travel to Moncton to shop.
Our Bass Pro Shop is nicer than your Bass Pro Shop. I know, I was down in Halifax the other weekend and checked yours out.

We're opening a new Costco in Moncton next month. It'll be the largest one in Atlantic Canada.

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Originally Posted by q12 View Post
I think half of Moncton and P.E.I. are probably at IKEA every weekend though based on the license plates in that parking lot.
IKEA is crazy busy - no question. It's a big draw for Halifax. No argument from me on this one.

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So it doesn't really go both ways on the same scale.........
Not on the same scale, no but the constant belittling of Moncton by Haligonians gets tedious after a while, and occasionally I feel the need to stand up to it.
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  #2004  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Not on the same scale, no but the constant belittling of Moncton by Haligonians gets tedious after a while, and occasionally I feel the need to stand up to it.
Maybe you find this happens somewhere else but it's rare for any Halifax forumers to comment on Moncton. It is much more common for other Atlantic forumers to police Halifax-related stuff. I don't blame most of the Halifax posters for sticking to the local.

Consider how much "airtime" in this thread gets devoted to talking about Moncton or how Saskatchewan is a better place for the CFL. Every time we also have to hear about NL and how people there will not participate. All that happened to precipitate this was a news item about the CFL in Halifax. It's fine that the discussion evolves but you can't really say this started with belittling. You guys are responsible for injecting your own local stuff into the conversation.
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  #2005  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:26 PM
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Just out of curiosity, is every Costco that's opening right now claiming to be the biggest? St. John's new Costco is claiming the same but I'm highly skeptical.

Also, stadiums.

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Consider how much "airtime" in this thread gets devoted to talking about Moncton or how Saskatchewan is a better place for the CFL. Every time we also have to hear about NL and how people there will not participate. All that happened to precipitate this was a news item about the CFL in Halifax. It's fine that the discussion evolves but you can't really say this started with belittling. You guys are responsible for injecting your own local stuff into the conversation.
My god, all my comment was suggesting was that football is on the up and rise in NL. It has nothing to do with some sort of anti-Halifax CFL expansion rhetoric. It had nothing to do with suggesting that NL would be a good place for a CFL team. What is wrong with you people ?????
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  #2006  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly View Post
Just out of curiosity, is every Costco that's opening right now claiming to be the biggest? St. John's new Costco is claiming the same but I'm highly skeptical.
I checked. The new Moncton Costco is going to be 154,000 sq ft. The article I briefly looked at regarding the new St. John's Costco said "up to" 150,000 sq ft.

We'll call it a draw.

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Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly View Post
Also, stadiums.

My god, all my comment was suggesting was that football is on the up and rise in NL. It has nothing to do with some sort of anti-Halifax CFL expansion rhetoric. It had nothing to do with suggesting that NL would be a good place for a CFL team. What is wrong with you people ?????
What it boils down to Marty is that as far as the Halifax people are concerned, everyone else in Atlantic Canada should just be quiet and shouldn't bother making comments promoting their own cities. It disturbs the sensibilities of Haligonians to have any other community in the region challenging in any way the preeminence or prestige of their fair city.

After all, Halifax is the best at absolutely everything...........
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  #2007  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
What it boils down to Marty is that as far as the Halifax people are concerned, everyone else in Atlantic Canada should just be quiet and shouldn't bother making comments promoting their own cities. It disturbs the sensibilities of Haligonians to have any other community in the region challenging in any way the preeminence or prestige of their fair city.

After all, Halifax is the best at absolutely everything...........
This isn't what I said at all and you're being antagonistic. I said it's fine that people post about other places. Just that if a person from place X decides to chime in whenever something is posted from place Y, and people from place Y never post about place X, it's wrong to argue that people from place Y are obsessed with place X or with such comparisons.

I really don't have much of an opinion on Moncton or other places around the region. I'm happy that you guys get big Costcos or whatever else. I think it's good for the region to have a bunch of different interesting cities. But I also call it as I see it in terms of what places have what amenities and so forth.
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  #2008  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 8:20 PM
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Maybe Cape Breton Regional Municipality should start bragging about it's shopping after all it has 3 Walmarts while Moncton only has 2 Walmarts and Sydney's most prominent mall has a Hudson's Bay department store while Moncton's most prominent mall has a call centre in it's former department store space.

The reason most Halifax forumers stay out of the Moncton forums is it's mostly gossip on every trivial store or restaurant opening with little discussion on urban skyscrapers and development.
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  #2009  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:19 PM
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If we can get this back onto stadiums that would be neat.

There's a Sports in Canadian Culture thread that yearns for posts. This has become a retail thread for the last page.
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  #2010  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 9:56 PM
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I agree with this. It's a big ask when a group comes in looking for money from multiple levels of government whilst also seeking help on repayments long-term. Would be a different story if they had the cash and were willing to finance themselves on the project.
I am not at all surprised by this considering who the public face of this would-be ownership group is. Anyone who followed his involvement with the Arizona Coyotes would have been skeptical of him from the moment he announced his intentions to pursue a team in Halifax.

Last edited by blueandgoldguy; Oct 29, 2018 at 10:18 PM.
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  #2011  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:05 PM
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I agree with much of your sentiment but I think the debate should be about is it a necessary piece of public infrastructure. It's not about will it be profitable, I don't expect it to be profitable.

What I would like to see and unfortunately won't happen is an indoor fieldhouse/stadium a la Fargodome (US84m in today's dollars) that would allow for year round public use rather than a basic seasonal stadium like THF. I think it would be worth 250m to build this kind of structure.

There are all sorts of technologies that could allow for an outdoor feel to this kind of structure, rather than a sterile indoor old style dome. Couple that with a 22k seating capacity vs 30k (or proposed 24k) and that would be additional saving.
The Fargodome is a bares bones facility. It would cost $400 - $500 million to build a 25,000 seat facility (expandable to 40,000) with proper amenities to house a CFL team. OPerating costs for a domed stadium range from $10 - $20 million annually. A city the size of Halifax will not attract enough acts to justify those additional operating costs. They will be lucky to attract one or two large concerts...and those stadium concert tours happen in the warmer months of the year when a indoor stadium is unnecessary.
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  #2012  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
I am not at all surprised by this considering who the public face of this would-be ownership group is. Anyone who followed his involvement with the Arizona Coyotes would have been skeptical of him from the moment he announce his intentions to pursue a team in Halifax.
There's a helluva big difference in the financial requirements for a NHL vs CFL team. The people of Halifax should be thankful that someone is pushing this for what IMO is needed area infrastructure.
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  #2013  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
The Fargodome is a bares bones facility. It would cost $400 - $500 million to build a 25,000 seat facility (expandable to 40,000) with proper amenities to house a CFL team. OPerating costs for a domed stadium range from $10 - $20 million annually. A city the size of Halifax will not attract enough acts to justify those additional operating costs. They will be lucky to attract one or two large concerts...and those stadium concert tours happen in the warmer months of the year when a indoor stadium is unnecessary.
The Calgary fieldhouse at 30k seats was budgeted at far less than what you quoted. Also, the stadium doesn't need to be expandable and 22k seats is enough to be profitable.
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  #2014  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:19 PM
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There's a helluva big difference in the financial requirements for a NHL vs CFL team. The people of Halifax should be thankful that someone is pushing this for what IMO is needed area infrastructure.
It doesn't matter. He is a big talker who never backs it up in any tangible manner. We will see if a leopard changes his spots...
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  #2015  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
The Calgary fieldhouse at 30k seats was budgeted at far less than what you quoted. Also, the stadium doesn't need to be expandable and 22k seats is enough to be profitable.
Most everyone here agreed that renders of that fieldhouse were garbage as one would expect trying to shoehorn in a stadium to a fieldhouse. $200 million will not get you anywhere close to a quality CFL-level indoor facility.
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  #2016  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Most everyone here agreed that renders of that fieldhouse were garbage as one would expect trying to shoehorn in a stadium to a fieldhouse. $200 million will not get you anywhere close to a quality CFL-level indoor facility.
Lot of professional architects here? I would think they would have better things to do with their time. I didn't agree on the fieldhouse and I didn't agree when people bitched about some early drawings about THF either. Early drawings don't tell you squat, same as the initial proposed drawing of Mosaic (looked nothing like the outcome).

I think they could get 22k for 300 mil, Just my non expert opinion.
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  #2017  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:33 PM
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What we know — and what we don’t — as the Halifax CFL stadium proposal heads to council
Zane Woodford, StarMetro Halifax October 29, 2018

HALIFAX—The future of a stadium and professional football franchise is in council’s hands this week.

Halifax regional council’s vote on Tuesday is a critical step; it could either throw out the proposal completely or lay the groundwork for a stadium and team in the municipality.

But there are countless unknowns, including the true cost to taxpayers.

The pitch from Maritime Football Limited Partnership (MFLP) is for a 24,000-seat stadium surrounded by commercial and residential development on a six- to eight-hectare portion of the 38-hectare Shannon Park lands, the former site of military housing next to the Dartmouth side of the MacKay Bridge.

The partnership, consisting of AMJ Campbell Van Lines president Bruce Bowser and former Arizona Coyotes co-owners Anthony Leblanc and Gary Drummond, is in talks with the Canadian Football League (CFL) to secure an expansion franchise for Halifax for the 2021 season, conditional on a stadium.

MFLP has met with Halifax Regional Municipality (HRM) staff, council, provincial staff and Premier Stephen McNeil.

A report to council recommends directing staff to complete a business case analysis on the project, work with the province to make the necessary legislative changes and determine new ways to pay for it and report back to council with a business case and a no-or-go recommendation.

The report says the stadium would cost between $170 million to $190 million; one reason for the more thorough business case is to nail down a precise figure.

The report suggests MFLP would buy the land, currently owned by a Crown corporation, Canada Lands Corporation (CLC).

It’s unclear who would own the stadium once completed, and other than HRM, it’s unclear who would pay for the cost of building it.

The report says the construction of the stadium would be paid for through a controversial model known as Tax Incremental Financing (TIF). In short, HRM would borrow the money needed to build the stadium and use increased property taxes in the surrounding area, a TIF district, to pay it back.

The justification for TIFs is typically that the project wouldn’t be possible without using the model and that the increased property values in the area will result in enough tax revenue to cover the annual debt costs — in this case $10 million, if the stadium cost $190 million.

“TIF models do have a risk factor as they are related to property values that can be affected by supply, construction delays, build-out time and absorption,” the staff report says.

It’s a similar model to the one used to finance the Halifax Convention Centre. In that case, the math isn’t working out. The office and retail portions of the larger Nova Centre project are largely vacant, the hotel is still unfinished and the resulting property tax assessments are lower than expected.

The staff report says Halifax would be a “partner” in the capital financing but never specifies whether MFLP would pay any of the capital cost. The report also suggests HRM will be on the hook for ongoing costs.

“Based on the preliminary discussion and information provided by MFLP, it is expected that HRM’s contribution to a stadium would include being a funding partner on the capital cost to construct the stadium as well as possibly being a contributor to ongoing capital repairs and maintenance,” the report says.

The staff report says securing funding from the province is “essential,” but the premier has publicly stated that capital financing through general revenue or tax incentives is off the table for the project.

Instead, staff are floating two alternative ideas: increasing the municipality’s hotel marketing levy and creating a new tax on car rentals. Either idea would require legislative changes from the provincial government. The staff report doesn’t say how much money the municipality would seek from the province through those taxes.

The report says MFLP would also seek a property tax break agreement on the stadium, something HRM doesn’t have the legal authority to do with for-profit corporations.

From a municipal planning standpoint, the project would need bylaw amendments to allow and expedite the process, “which would designate the selected stadium and mixed-use development as a matter of regional significance, requiring special policy and regulatory consideration.”

The approval process — including public engagement, community and regional council approval and provincial approval — could be completed as quickly as six months, the report says.

The staff report expressed concerns about the project on the planning side, including its effect on the Centre Plan and the Cogswell redevelopment project.

“A concern would be that the proposal simply shifts development from one area of the municipality to another, and as a result, there would be no incremental tax revenues. Competition could impact the build out and absorption of units for the Cogswell Development,” staff say.

There’s also millions of dollars worth of municipal infrastructure to worry about.

“Infrastructure could range from parks, roads, transit, public safety and street lights to any associated recreation requirements,” the report says.

The site is also prone to storm surge and sea level rise, the staff report says, “and may require unique engineering solutions to address risks to planned public roads, parks, services and other public infrastructure.”

If council moves ahead as recommended on Tuesday, staff will attempt to answer these questions and HRM and MFLP will start gauging public support for the project.

CLC won’t sell the land needed unless the proponents undertake a public engagement process “to confirm community support for the incorporation of the stadium into the current Shannon Park redevelopment concept.”

MFLP will also need the Millbrook First Nation, which is acquiring about three hectares of the Shannon Park lands, on its side.

“It will be necessary that the Millbrook First Nation is engaged and confirms that it supports the proposed stadium development,” the staff report says.

Public support currently varies, depending on who’s asked and who’s asking.

A Corporate Research Associates poll cited in the staff report, with no methodology or margin of error noted, says that “63 per cent of HRM residents support a stadium being built with the financial support of municipal and provincial governments.”

A poll commissioned by StarMetro Halifax and conducted by MQO Research earlier this year found a split in public opinion. MQO surveyed 500 Halifax residents in late March and early April, resulting in a margin of error, for a population of this size, of plus or minus 4.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

Forty-two per cent of respondents said their views were either “very favourable” or “favourable” to the idea of taxpayer money being used for a stadium, and 41 per cent said their views were “unfavourable” or “very unfavourable.”

Shannon Park was the No. 1 location favoured by respondents in that poll, with 27 per cent choosing it over Dartmouth Crossing at 22 per cent and Bayers Lake at 14 per cent.

If council follows the staff recommendation on Tuesday, MFLP will start public engagement and then launch a season-ticket drive and a team-naming contest and finalize its agreement with the CFL.
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  #2018  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 12:25 AM
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Clearly population is just one of many potential factors that might dictate the success or failure of this product. There's been professional football in those smaller Canadian markets for decades. Interest in it has grown, slowly, over time. As we all know, people actually talk about CFL football in the Prairies and nobody looks at you cross-eyed. If somebody tries to do that in Southern Ontario, well, needless to say, it's a great way to alienate yourself in the workplace.

Anyway, I wish Halifax luck in this endeavour but any comparison with Saskatchewan, for example, should be done very cautiously.
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  #2019  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 12:56 AM
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. As we all know, people actually talk about CFL football in the Prairies and nobody looks at you cross-eyed. If somebody tries to do that in Southern Ontario, well, needless to say, it's a great way to alienate yourself in the workplace.
I'm not so sure about that... Hamilton has a pretty established fanbase, and Ottawa's has grown to be a fair size. When there is a team, people tend to pay attention.
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  #2020  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2018, 1:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
What it boils down to Marty is that as far as the Halifax people are concerned, everyone else in Atlantic Canada should just be quiet and shouldn't bother making comments promoting their own cities. It disturbs the sensibilities of Haligonians to have any other community in the region challenging in any way the preeminence or prestige of their fair city.

After all, Halifax is the best at absolutely everything...........
I think it's great to say things promoting one's own city but it definitely annoys me if it isn't factual. For instance, having grown up in Amherst and made numerous trips to Moncton over the years, and one thing that consistently stood out is how few out of province plates there were anywhere you go compared to either Amherst or Halifax. There are times I saw maybe 1-2 out of province plates in almost an entire day while it's impossible to make a 15 min drive to the local supermarket in Amherst or HRM without seeing several. But of course it's possible the number you're seeing genuinely seems like a lot to you.
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