High Speed Rail in Canada

[ssiguy]

The speed of trains is little more than penis-envy.

No one cares about how fast their train is travelling but rather how long their trip takes. You can take HSR but if you are making so many stops along the way the that the "high speed" part of the equation is gone then you won't entice anyone new to get on-board.

We saw this on Wynne's "get some SWO votes, written on the back of a napkin" HSR proposal from Toronto to London. KW and Pearson had stops planned but then Guelph, Stratford, and even Brampton wanted their stops as well.

The service has to be reliable, frequent, fast and, very importantly, affordable. Corridor train travel is not very expensive but of course that comparison only holds true when you are travelling alone. Add a partner and the fare doubles while driving with someone else drops your expenses in half.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. To be honest, I think once HFR is up and running, the temptation to upgrade that same corridor progressively will outweigh any desire to build a whole new HSR corridor for a few reasons:

1) Funding. It's a lot easier to lobby for and receive piecemeal funding to improve current service than it is to get a massive new funding package just a few years after a major capital investment.

This is the second most-important reason why I believe that HFR should be built only single-tracked and with all the other constraints which come along with cutting-corners to keep the capital costs down (the most important reason is of course that a lower price tag makes the project much more financeable), but consider the following:

If HFR is single-tracked and not grade-separated, you will reach the capacity limits soon as demand outstrips the capacity offered by the maximum number of trains the system can handle without cascading delays. At that point, your options will be either to upgrade the HFR line with second track and realignments to improve speed etc. or to build a new HSR segment which can be built double-tracked and for much faster speeds. The success demonstrated by HFR will create pressure to take the step further towards HSR, as it won't cost that much more than "fixing" HFR, while providing much bigger benefits.

However, if HFR is already built double-tracked and grade-separated, the incremental benefits which could be achieved with HSR decrease substantially, while the psychological barrier against "abandoning" the HFR corridor (between P'boro and SMTF) will increase with every Dollar you've already "sunk" on that segment.

The problem with building an alignment which is double-tracked, grade-separated and allows speed beyond the magical 110 mph is that it is unlikely to receive an upgrade within the next few decades. Therefore, you should only go that step if it is the final step of your plans for that segment (which in your case seems to be something with a maximum speed beyond 240 km/h)…

2) Politics. Start planning a new connection between Peterborough and Kingston and there'll be a whole new political fight from other Lakeshore communities asking why they are excluded. And if buy some miracle an entire Lakeshore HSR line comes to fruition, these communities will be asking for the same level of service as Kingston too.

There simply is no space to fiddle two extra tracks through cities like Belleville, Trenton or Cobourg, but this would be the pre-requisite for receiving full HSR service. The area along the Lakeshore is completely built up starting with Bowmansville, whereas the Havelock Sub doesn't encounter built-up areas until just before the Agincourt Yard...

3) Demand. Connecting TOM with HFR will see VIA's passenger and demand growth mix change substantially. A lot of passenger growth will be coming from the big metros. And those passengers won't see much benefit in higher fares and longer travel times to hit up a town on 140k.

Any HSR alignment will need to avoid the Canadian Shield as much as possible and that means getting very close to Kingston, meaning that the marginal cost (in terms of capital cost and travel time) of serving Kingston will be minimal. Have a look at how much south the Ecotrain alignments ventures, as I don’t see any chance that any more Northern HSR alignment could possible pass any environmental assessment process:

Source: Ecotrain Study, Deliverable 9 (Appendix 1)

Interestingly, the alignment identified in the Ecotrain study passes 5 km north of Kingston, which means that the Kingston station shown in all schedules would be very remote. Personally, I would place the station just north of the 401’s exit at Highway 10 (Division St / Perth Rd), like I’ve shown in this map 6 years ago:

I agree that Kingston will gain more prominence with services hubbed there. Not sure, it buys them enough clout to become critical to HSR plans. Especially if Peterborough sees some explosive growth coming out of HFR, which is a realistic possibility. It'll be interesting to see how plans and arguments evolve post-HFR.

Once HFR is built, I don’t see how you could bypass either city (Peterborough or Kingston) with any HSR alignment…

[JHikka]

Washington State approves $150 million to plan Vancouver-Seattle high-speed rail
Kenneth Chan
Mar 15, 2022

The legislature of Washington State has approved a spending measure of US$150 million (CA$192 million) to proceed with advanced planning work on the proposed Cascadia high-speed rail passenger service linking Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland.

The funding is just one component of an approved 16-year, US$17 billion (CA$21.7 billion) comprehensive transportation expansion and improvement plan introduced by the Democrats. In the final vote on Thursday, it saw bi-partisan Republican support on the floor.

During media availability following the decision, Governor Jay Inslee deemed the plan, called Move Ahead Washington, to be the “cleanest and greenest transportation package in the history of Washington.”

The state government’s funding for the high-speed rail planning component takes advantage of up to US$700 million (CA$894 million) in matching federal funding that could be made available by President Joe Biden’s US$1 trillion (CA$1.28 trillion) national infrastructure plan.

Funding from both the state and federal governments — potentially up to US$850 million (CA$1.09 billion) combined — would push the high-speed rail project to a new phase of advanced planning. This would include more detailed technical work, geotechnical studies, environmental impact studies, public consultation, and development on a business case and funding models.

In December 2020, a report summarizing the project work-to-date stated the next step to move the project into further planning development would be to establish a new coordinating organization based on the tri-jurisdictional partnership agreement.





https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vanc...-state-funding

[YYCguys]

My friend who lives in Seattle says that this has been talked about for decades and thinks he will never see this built in his lifetime.

[manny_santos]

If - and it's a big if - this HSR proposal comes to fruition, I do wonder how exactly they propose to route it on the Canadian side of the border.

The existing BNSF and CNR corridors used from the border to Vancouver include a number of problems:

- BNSF tracks go through downtown White Rock with several level crossings
- BNSF tracks from White Rock to North Surrey have meandering/windy sections
- New Westminster Railway swing bridge - heavily used by freight as it is, and the fact that it's a swing bridge makes it unusable for HSR

Most likely there would need to be a whole new corridor built. At least from the border to Richmond, it could be built along the Highway 99 corridor, which has the benefit of going near YVR. However from there to Vancouver there would be no over-ground corridor that could be built without major disruption. In theory it could be tied in to the south end of the Canada Line, though that has major capacity issues.

There's also the King George Highway (old 99A) corridor and the Highway 15 corridor, which could tie in with Skytrain in Surrey/Langley and make it easy to access for those who live in Surrey, Langley, New Westminster, and the Tri-Cities. Ultimately there would likely need to be a stop south of the Fraser River, whether that be around Surrey City Centre or in South Surrey or Delta shouldn't matter.

A separate issue is how HSR would work vis-à-vis the border. The time savings could easily be evaporated by border delays. Although the existing Amtrak service has border pre-clearance at Pacific Central Station, my understanding is that the train still has to stop at the border for customs inspection entering the US. I also don't know if Canada has any preclearance on the US side.

[TorontoDrew]

You know elections are looming when we hear proposals like this.

They definatly could use with upgraded train service though. The Cascadia is so old and tired. The interior makes VIA look like the Orient Express.

source: https://nwtripfinder.com/




I've used it a bunch of times. Without the views the experience would be terrible.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I also don't know if Canada has any preclearance on the US side.

That wouldn't work. Preclearance only works if passengers can be kept sterile (i.e. no boarding/disembarking of passengers at intermediate stops) between the departure point and border crossing. See: Eurostar in the UK.

Unless one is doing an non-stop service from Seattle to Vancouver?

Preclearance works better for airplanes.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

My friend who lives in Seattle says that this has been talked about for decades and thinks he will never see this built in his lifetime.

I think your friend might be right in that it will take a long, long time to come to fruition, but I really hope it's within our lifetimes. Many examples of mega projects getting discussed for decades, but surprisingly end up being built some 40 years after it was first proposed.

This is a massive game changer and unifier for the PNW region and will help distribute some of the population and talent.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by thewave46

That wouldn't work. Preclearance only works if passengers can be kept sterile (i.e. no boarding/disembarking of passengers at intermediate stops) between the departure point and border crossing. See: Eurostar in the UK.

Unless one is doing an non-stop service from Seattle to Vancouver?

Preclearance works better for airplanes.

Northbound trains already cross the border without stop as passengers clear Canadian immigration and customs upon arrival at Pacific Central (similar to what was the situation for Eurostar services arriving in London/Ebbsfleet/Ashford before UK became all paranoid about immigration).

I’d expect the procedure to remain the same for HSR, provided no additional stops are planned on the Canadian side…

[logan5]

150 million just towards planning says to me that Washington state is very serious about this. As of right now, I would put Vancouver in the lead as the first Canadian city to get true high speed tail. And it would be huge for the city to have such a strong link to an economic powerhouse like Seattle. We are already seeing the likes of Amazon and Microsoft setting up here. Once that rail link is built, that will greatly intensify.

[TorontoDrew]

Here is an interesting find. The U.S doesn't invest much more then Canada when it comes to passenger train infrastructure.


source: https://www.urban.org

[Nouvellecosse]

Weird how France tends to invest less per capita than the UK given that France's rail infrastructure tends to be the more impressive of the two. Especially since France has a much larger land area to serve (over double!)

France must have had a higher investment rate in the decades prior.

[TorontoDrew]

Also New York State set out in 2014 to do an environmental impact statement of the Empire Corridor which currently Connect Toronto to NYC through Niagara Falls. The work was all completed last year and they hope to submit it some time this year. Depending on the outcome it would essentially force Ontario to adopt their plan and invest in HSR or lose the Union to Penn Station service.

So Toronto to Niagara Falls might be Canada's first section of HSR to be built.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Also New York State set out in 2014 to do an environmental impact statement of the Empire Corridor which currently Connect Toronto to NYC through Niagara Falls. The work was all completed last year and they hope to submit it some time this year. Depending on the outcome it would essentially force Ontario to adopt their plan and invest in HSR or lose the Union to Penn Station service.

So Toronto to Niagara Falls might be Canada's first section of HSR to be built.

This doesn’t make any sense once you consider the question of US immigration and customs checks: given that there simply is no space to create a pre-clearance facility at Union Station Toronto, you’ll have to do it at the the border, forcing all passengers off the train. This makes the border check point the ideally location for a change of trains. However, Niagara Falls is a useless destination for cross-border passengers (as both, Americans and Canadians) can use domestic train services to reach their side of Niagara Falls. Therefore, Buffalo is the much more useful border processing point (just like Michigan Central Station in Detroit), but that requires a border crossing which is much closer to Buffalo than Niagara Falls and there is only one other rail crossing: Fort Erie (which conveniently avoids the Seaway draw bridge as the most severe chokepoint of the Grimsby Sub).

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Weird how France tends to invest less per capita than the UK given that France's rail infrastructure tends to be the more impressive of the two. Especially since France has a much larger land area to serve (over double!)

France must have had a higher investment rate in the decades prior.

I think both networks are equally impressive. I'm going to assume France has more highway networks then the U.K so the money needs to be more spread around.

The UK National Rail Service Map

pop (England Scotland Wales) 61,500,000

Vs Frances

pop 65,300,000

[JHikka]

Isn't the UK's system generally woefully behind schedule and expensive to ride? I recall hearing that they have awful on-time rates.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

This doesn’t make any sense once you consider the question of US immigration and customs checks: given that there simply is no space to create a pre-clearance facility at Union Station Toronto, you’ll have to do it at the the border, forcing all passengers off the train. This makes the border check point the ideally location for a change of trains. However, Niagara Falls is a useless destination for cross-border passengers (as both, Americans and Canadians) can use domestic train services to reach their side of Niagara Falls. Therefore, Buffalo is the much more useful border processing point (just like Michigan Central Station in Detroit), but that requires a border crossing which is much closer to Buffalo than Niagara Falls and there is only one other rail crossing: Fort Erie (which conveniently avoids the Seaway draw bridge as the most severe chokepoint of the Grimsby Sub).

Track space at Union limits options as well. I think you'd see a plan to either tunnel under everything and make a new sub-level, or create an HSR station not far to the west.

I too doubt it would follow the CN corridor along the lake. Cutting across the countryside from Hamilton to Fort Erie would make the most sense for speed, and the track may be able to use the existing Townline Tunnel under the Welland Canal. How the line crosses the escarpment and connects to the Lakeshore West corridor around Hamilton would be big decisions too, as would whether there is a stop in Hamilton-Burlington.

[Innsertnamehere]

any upgrades to Maple Leaf service could likely be mostly completed along the existing corridor - it's remarkably straight across most of Niagara and could be upgraded to 300km/h fairly easily, minus the dozens of required grade separations, the Welland Canal crossing, and a few curves in Niagara Falls itself,

NY's planned service connects up to Niagara Falls, and frankly, I think it would be a huge miss for HSR to create a new corridor across the southern Niagara Peninsula and completely miss Niagara Falls which would be a huge ridership generator.

[ScreamingViking]

Niagara Falls would be a big miss.

There would likely need to be a new crossing of the Niagara River as well, for either corridor. Both of the existing bridges are old and single-track.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I think both networks are equally impressive. I'm going to assume France has more highway networks then the U.K so the money needs to be more spread around.

Looking at a map doesn't tell you anything. France's rail network is nearly twice as large as the UK's, but even if they were at the same scale, it doesn't tell anything about quality. For instance, the length of France's electrified routes is over 2.5x the UK's. Plus France has a lot more HSR and faster HSR than Britain, with the only route in Britain that's comparable to the TGV network is the short HS1. Otherwise they really only have ~200km/h services. The comparison isn't even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_network_size