HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #121  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 8:20 PM
KEVINphx's Avatar
KEVINphx KEVINphx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 975
Rationalize please

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
My vote was to keep the definition of marriage as is. Hardly qualifies as shoving my beliefs down your throat. Perhaps you're trying to shove your beliefs down my throat?

If the ballot had asked about civil unions, my vote would be different.

Thanks.
So when Reform Judaism recognizes same sex marriages, you don't think that you are forcing your Christian beliefs on them by supporting this measure? Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish sect in American society.

Just taking it from this tiny aspect of the greater picture, who is forcing their beliefs?

As far as I am aware, in Massachusetts the Catholic church still does not perform same sex marriage so it looks to me as though same-sex marriage is NOT being forced upon individual religious traditions.

There are others too that perform same sex marriages that are NOT recognized by the state. This is a strong argument as far as I am concerned and surprised it is not brought up more often by the proponents of civil equality.

Also, according to wiki : "Several Christian denominations support same-sex marriage and perform same-sex weddings. The three largest are Unitarian Universalists, the United Church of Canada and the United Church of Christ(UCC)."

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #122  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 8:30 PM
KEVINphx's Avatar
KEVINphx KEVINphx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 975
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
This says it better than I can...

Same-sex marriage vs. civil rights

-By Jeff Jacoby

Homosexual marriage is not a civil rights issue. But that hasn't stopped the advocates of same-sex marriage from draping themselves in the glory of the civil rights movement — and smearing the defenders of traditional marriage as the moral equal of segregationists.


In The New York Times last Sunday, cultural critic Frank Rich, quoting a "civil rights lawyer," beatified the gay and lesbian couples lining up to receive illegal marriage licenses from San Francisco's new mayor, Gavin Newsom.


"An act as unremarkable as getting a wedding license has been transformed by the people embracing it," Rich wrote, "much as the unremarkable act of sitting at a Formica lunch counter was transformed by an act of civil disobedience at a Woolworth's in North Carolina 44 years ago this month." Nearby, the Times ran a photograph of a smiling lesbian couple in matching wedding veils — and an even larger photograph of a 1960 lunch counter sit-in.


Rich's essay — "The Joy of Gay Marriage" — went on to cast the supporters of traditional marriage as hateful zealots. They are "eager to foment the bloodiest culture war possible," he charged. "They are gladly donning the roles played by Lester Maddox and George Wallace in the civil rights era."


But it is the marriage radicals like Rich and Newsom who are doing their best to inflame a culture war. And as is so often the case in wartime, truth — in this case, historical truth — has been an early casualty.


For contrary to what Rich seems to believe, when Ezell Blair Jr., David Richmond, Joseph McNeil, and Franklin McCain approached the lunch counter of the Elm Street Woolworth's in Greensboro, N.C. on Feb. 1, 1960, all they were looking for was something to eat. The four North Carolina Agricultural & Technical College students only wanted what any white customer might want, and on precisely the same terms — the same food at the same counter at the same price.


Those first four sit-in strikers, like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before. They weren't trying to do something that had never been lawful in any state of the union. They weren't bent on forcing a revolutionary change upon a timeless social institution.


All they were seeking was what should already have been theirs under the law of the land. The 14th Amendment — approved by Congress and ratified by three-fourths of the states in 1868 — had declared that blacks no less than whites were entitled to equal protection of the law. The Civil Rights Act of 1875 — passed by a Democratic House and a Republican Senate and signed into law by President Grant — had barred discrimination in public accommodations.


But the Supreme Court had gutted those protections with shameful decisions in 1883 and 1896. The court's betrayal of black Americans was the reason why, more than six decades later, segregation still polluted so much of the nation. To restore the 14th Amendment to its original purpose, to re-create the Civil Rights Act, to return to black citizens the equality that had been stolen from them — that was the great cause of civil rights.


The marriage radicals, on the other hand, seek to restore nothing. They have not been deprived of the law's equal protection, nor of the right to marry — only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a "marriage." They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically — by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights.


But dare to speak against it, and you are no better than Bull Connor.


Last month, as Massachusetts lawmakers prepared to debate a constitutional amendment on the meaning of marriage, the state's leading black clergy came out strongly in support of the age-old definition: the union of a man and a woman. They were promptly tarred as enemies of civil rights. "Martin Luther King," one left-wing legislator barked, "is rolling over in his grave at a statement like this."


But if anything has King spinning in his grave, it is the indecency of exploiting his name for a cause he never supported. The civil rights movement for which he lived and died was grounded in a fundamental truth: All of us are created equal. The same-sex marriage movement, by contrast, is grounded in the denial of a fundamental truth: The Creator who made us equal made us male and female. That duality has always and everywhere been the starting point for marriage. The newly fashionable claim that marriage can ignore that duality is akin to the claim, back when lunch counters were segregated, that America was a land of liberty and justice for all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

I know wikipedia is not a infallible source, however I think this read would provide some interesting history that begs the question: did the author of this article have any knowledge of the history of same sex unions when he wrote this particular bit:

"Those first four sit-in strikers, like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before. They weren't trying to do something that had never been lawful in any state of the union. They weren't bent on forcing a revolutionary change upon a timeless social institution."

Yes, there is only ONE way to define marriage, his "timeless" definition. Please, this guy's words are not worthy of wiping my ass with!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 9:58 PM
NorthScottsdale NorthScottsdale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 301
929, keep it clear in your mind that gay marriage is only ONE issue in the fight for gay rights. There are numerous other issues. For example: "Don't ask, dont tell". If you are openly gay you cannot serve in the United States Military. Also, do you (and those guys in the editorials you posted) seriously believe that homosexuals are not discriminated against or treated like 2nd class citizens? What about that woman in Seattle who got kicked out of a Mariners game because she was kissing her girlfriend? Do you see straight couples getting kicked out of ballgames for kissing? What about the numerous homosexuals that get beaten, raped or killed every year for the simple fact that they are gay? Some people won't hire you because you are gay, some people wont rent or sell a house to you because you are gay. One of my good friends' parents havent talked to him in over 2 years because they found out he was gay. Do straight people (or black people for that matter) know what its like to live in fear of getting disowned by your own family just because your gay?

So yes, 929, there are numerous issues in the gay equality fight. with many rights being denied us, and in the case of prop 8 in california, rights being taken away. If you seriously still can't see the ignorance and bigotry in your posts i pity you.

Also, I was raised in a very strict religious lutheran family, I know all about the bible. And I know all about how even that contradicts itself at times. Also if I am not wrong, the christian faith teaches that only god can judge. So why are all the christians I know some of the most judgemental people out there? you guys get on your high horse and preach about shit you have no idea about.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 11:22 PM
PhxSprawler's Avatar
PhxSprawler PhxSprawler is offline
Desert Dweller
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Phoenix Metro Fringes
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
...let's look to just one of several New Testament passages, I Corinthians 6:9-20...

9"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I am a bit late to the party here, but I am going to go out on a limb and say your Bible was probably re-published and re-translated within the last 20 years or so by bigots.

I say that because chapter nine in my three versions all say the same thing "9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I could interpret or change any of these words to mean what I want them to mean also, but I choose to believe you have a right to practice your beliefs. I disagree with your manipulated Bible and am very upset so many people in this country go out of their way to justify hatred and bigotry.

In the words of the bible, Corinthians 7:9- But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Let fags marry.

Amen.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 11:23 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale View Post
929, keep it clear in your mind that gay marriage is only ONE issue in the fight for gay rights. There are numerous other issues. For example: "Don't ask, dont tell". If you are openly gay you cannot serve in the United States Military. Also, do you (and those guys in the editorials you posted) seriously believe that homosexuals are not discriminated against or treated like 2nd class citizens? What about that woman in Seattle who got kicked out of a Mariners game because she was kissing her girlfriend? Do you see straight couples getting kicked out of ballgames for kissing? What about the numerous homosexuals that get beaten, raped or killed every year for the simple fact that they are gay? Some people won't hire you because you are gay, some people wont rent or sell a house to you because you are gay. One of my good friends' parents havent talked to him in over 2 years because they found out he was gay. Do straight people (or black people for that matter) know what its like to live in fear of getting disowned by your own family just because your gay?

So yes, 929, there are numerous issues in the gay equality fight. with many rights being denied us, and in the case of prop 8 in california, rights being taken away. If you seriously still can't see the ignorance and bigotry in your posts i pity you.

Also, I was raised in a very strict religious lutheran family, I know all about the bible. And I know all about how even that contradicts itself at times. Also if I am not wrong, the christian faith teaches that only god can judge. So why are all the christians I know some of the most judgemental people out there? you guys get on your high horse and preach about shit you have no idea about.
Another attack on Christians

And another accusation that I've been judgemental and yet still no quotes that show me having judged anybody. Still waiting on a post that makes me a bigot as well. For the 184,365th time, I voted according to my own faith. You voted however you wanted as well.

As for the other isssues you've raised, you are correct that gays are treated unfairly in a wide variety of ways. I don't dispute or condone that at all. The issue on the ballot, however, dealt strictly with the definition of marriage.

You might be surprised to know that I think "don't ask, don't tell" is ridiculous, by the way.

Regarding the Mariners baseball game, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the two women was an MTV, Tila Tequila contestant and she was dressed in stripper-like clothing that almost anyone would find to be inappropriate in a family atmosphere. Secondly, reports were that it was much more than occasional pecks, but "groping and making out." Alcohol was also believed to have been involved and they were apparently warned that continued displays would need to stop, but they refused. Thus, according to their team policy, they had every right to escort them out. If the detailed reports are to be believed, nobody (gay or straight) would have wanted to sit right behind that. Get a room!

It's shameful that anyone would break communication with someone when finding out a friend/family member/etc was gay. It's shameful that gays have been beaten for being gay. Obviously, no doubt about that. Gays indeed are due their civil rights BUT CHANGING THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE DOES NOT QUALIFY AS THEIR CIVIL RIGHT. Call it something else, then go right ahead.

All that said, standing behind my own Christian convictions as it relates to the definition of marriage, DOES NOT make me ignorant. It DOES NOT make me hateful. It DOES NOT make me a bigot. To assert any of those adjectives against me or anyone else that simply stands by the Bible's definition of marriage, is unfair at best, harrassment at worst.

(now expecting a fresh round of mean-spirited posts claiming that I'm the hateful one)...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #126  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2008, 11:55 PM
PhxSprawler's Avatar
PhxSprawler PhxSprawler is offline
Desert Dweller
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Phoenix Metro Fringes
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post

I understand why many try to spin what the Bible says about homosexuality because it would certainly make life easier. My life in business might be much easier if God did not condemn lying also. But He does.

The verses are clear. Here's another:

-1 Timothy 1:8-10 (I want to make you actually open the Bible and read it...)

I know gay people. I'm friendly with gay people. I will socialize with gay people. I will help gay people. I will show love to gay people. And if they ask me, I'll tell them that I believe homosexual behavior to be wrong.

If you can't accept that, so be it.
Your choice of verses to condemn homosexuality:

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."

Thank you for the comparison, oh "friend of homosexuals." Promoting inequality does not allow you to even dare call yourself a friend. Please don't even try to pretend to be on our side. Some of us may interpret your comments as "lies." I won't pretend to be sympathetic towards your views that are obviously deep-rooted, and you should not pretend to be sympathetic towards my views or the views of any homosexual, because they are part of OUR REALITY, not simply our beliefs.

It is the religious right that has restored power to a long-quiet machine. We have been called perverts, outcasts, human garbage, degenerates, and queers long enough. As God as my witness and motivator, the hate and injustice will end with our generation.

Last edited by PhxSprawler; Nov 20, 2008 at 4:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #127  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2008, 1:02 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 505


I've sent you a PM to discuss Greek translations and more.

Anyone else that wants to fire away on me, do so by PM.

I'd like to be done on this thread and the majority likely wants me done on this thread as well. The same statements have been recycled too many times.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2008, 10:52 AM
PhxPavilion's Avatar
PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 702
I see you've ignored my question to you 929.

Why do you see yourself as the victim all the while doing the victimizing. What do you fear so much that you feel the need to control. The beliefs of your own affect the lives of many, for it is that with which you aim to deny rather than are being denied.

Last edited by PhxPavilion; Nov 20, 2008 at 11:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #129  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 1:41 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,184
People that think that it is okay to discriminate against gays in marriage or ANY other respect should read this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_Riots

It isn't that hard to go from voting selfishly to active discrimination. A slippery slope, indeed.

--don
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:53 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.