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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Many years ago I remember reading that prior to colonization, California was the most ethno-linguistically diverse area of native North Americans. Apparently, California was always diverse.
I have always found that there is a very interesting historical "what if" along these lines.

As if the Americas had instead panned out like, say, Asia, and that European colonialism and settlers had not supplanted indigenous cultures and languages.

And so you'd have Mohawk or Navajo, or Mayan, etc. "countries" just like you have countries like Thailand, Cambodia or Nepal where the population is still massively or entirely of the indigenous stock, and their languages and cultures constitute the national mainstream. Imagine a national economy, army, government, education system form K to PhD, functioning entirely in Navajo.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
To be fair, I don't think there were so many French to screw anybody out there. There were explorers and adventurers seeking fun and glory, but whatever reason, not so many people from our country moved over there, while the "New France" territory was huge and full of natural wealth.

The thing is life may have been easier to "peasants", even for the past 4 centuries over here, because our own country is quite fertile. Plus, whenever the people would come short of food, they would riot against the monarchy instead of moving.

That's always what they've done here. They don't move. They behead the establishment instead.
England and France had and have very roughly similar populations, but France has a lot more land for those people to move around and, most importantly, to sustain themselves.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 6:58 PM
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Except the Huguenots. Many Americans with French ancestry, their French ancestors were Huguenots.
Yes there were Huguenot immigrants that went directly to the U.S. from France, and other groups like Basques who were not your mainline Monsieur Dupont French people either.

But the vast majority of people in the U.S. who are of "French" origin had ancestors who transited via what is today Canada at some point.

They're generally descended from people who migrated from Quebec and Acadia to work in the industries of the NE US in the 1800s and the first half of the 1900s, or from Acadians (ancestors of the Cajuns) who deported by the British during the Grand Dérangement starting in 1755, or from adventurers (coureurs de bois, voyageurs) who were roaming all over the continent starting in the 1600s.

The US Bureau of the Census has both French and French Canadian as ancestry categories. In addition to others like Cajun I am pretty sure. In the case of the first category (French) a lot of those people are of French Canadian too. Many places in the northern half of the NE US have ancestry breakdowns where 8% of the population is "French Canadian" and 9% is "French". But my hunch is that these people all have pretty much the same origins.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I have always found that there is a very interesting historical "what if" along these lines.

As if the Americas had instead panned out like, say, Asia, and that European colonialism and settlers had not supplanted indigenous cultures and languages.

And so you'd have Mohawk or Navajo, or Mayan, etc. "countries" just like you have countries like Thailand, Cambodia or Nepal where the population is still massively or entirely of the indigenous stock, and their languages and cultures constitute the national mainstream. Imagine a national economy, army, government, education system form K to PhD, functioning entirely in Navajo.
There's an argument to be made that the hard borders that we know today are a result of European colonialism, even in places where Europeans didn't supplant the indigenous population. Without colonialism it's hard to say that things like a national language and identity would broadly exist around the world.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
There's an argument to be made that the hard borders that we know today are a result of European colonialism, even in places where Europeans didn't supplant the indigenous population. Without colonialism it's hard to say that things like a national language and identity would broadly exist around the world.
What would exist in its place, then?
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 8:21 PM
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What would exist in its place, then?
migrate is what homo sapiens are wired to do though so...
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
The US invaded and occupied Haiti for much of the early 20th Century; the occupation didn't end until the 1930s, I think.

The US invaded Haiti again in the 1990s. There's plenty of literature out there in regards to how the US has continued to screw Haiti over.
Yeah, just read up on that. Apparently the US did not want Germany to gain influence in the Caribbean. A lot of German economic elites were in Haiti and some even intermarried into the elite class.

Essentially, the US got involved for roughly the same reasons we got involved in the Middle East and the Cold War. And the sad thing about it was that Woodrow Wilson forced the Haitians to accept a constitution that allowed foreigners to own land and property. Wondered what stopped them from just annexing the whole place and the Caribbean in general. Florida would probably be an afterthought for retirees and snowbirds if that happened.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 9:39 PM
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What would exist in its place, then?
Probably a lot of local languages and identities with a commonly known language for communication between groups, like how Latin worked in the Roman era, or how English operates in India today.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 11:01 PM
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Just think of how many MORE Volvos (and Saabs!) you'd see on The Main Line if it was still New Sweden!
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 5:35 AM
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xzmattzx, more relevant to where you're from: what if the Swedes had been able to actually keep their Delaware colony?

Or imagine for a second that the Russians never sold Alaska?

Or if Congress hadn't had to deal with balancing the number of Slave vs Free states and Cuba's statehood requests had been granted?

How seriously did Newfoundland consider joining the US after WWII? That whole Economic Union Party and all?
Wow, I had never heard of Cuba becoming a state or Newfoundland joining the US. Where did you find out about those?

For New Sweden, if we come back to reality and assume that it eventually became part of the British colonies, say by the 1750s, I think the state borders are different. A state of New Sweden would mainly be the lower Delaware Valley, from New Castle County north to Philadelphia. Since New Sweden was on both sides of the river, I imagine it would still include some of South Jersey, but possibly a little bit more, like maybe everything from Atlantic City or Wildwood on south and west. New Sweden may have looked like a sideways or mirrored Rhode Island.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 7:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Except the Huguenots. Many Americans with French ancestry, their French ancestors were Huguenots.
Right. This was because of the so called wars of religion opposing well established Catholicism to the early Protestant communities in the 16th and 17th centuries.

I think that in fact, it was nothing much related to any Christian spirituality. It was more about the economy as usual. The Huguenots (Protestants from France) were growing more and more influential in business nationwide. That the French Catholic crown didn't like. I may be overly simplifying the whole story, but always heard that that's actually what caused the gruesome civil conflicts and massacres back then. People say it was somewhat horrific.

Then a lot of Huguenots had to move to neighboring countries more Protestant-friendly, like England or the Netherlands. John Calvin himself had to spend much of his lifetime in Switzerland.
Some also crossed the ocean indeed. Hence some towns like New Rochelle, NY that would have been founded by the Huguenots over there.

From my perspective, I would say the country probably lost a lot of interesting people because of those civil wars. That's how France remained mostly Catholic by a very large majority. Otherwise, I guess it would've been more like Germany with a better balance between the Roman and reformed churches.

Whatever, that's just old history, but still can be felt in today's French culture. We don't like the idea of excessive rivalry between religious communities at all in this country.
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 7:50 AM
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As for the Caribbean, it is said that the French settlers were really nasty and relentless over there.
They had plantations and found a huge interest in slavery, that provided them with a 'free' workforce. By free, read that they didn't have to pay them...
The Haitian history is well known in that respect.

The settlers were probably too lazy to do the tedious rough job themselves anyway.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 12:09 PM
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Probably a lot of local languages and identities with a commonly known language for communication between groups, like how Latin worked in the Roman era, or how English operates in India today.
Isn't that already what we have today on a worldwide scale?
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 3:15 PM
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Isn't that already what we have today on a worldwide scale?
Globally, yes. But colonialism created a lot of arbitrary countries, so if it had not happened, for example, the Indian state probably wouldn't even exist today. But the different regional ethnic groups that make up India probably would still be roughly where they are today.

And to my point about hard borders, it's not necessarily a given that every inch of land on Earth needs to be claimed by a human population.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2020, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
People usually talk about the 13 colonies but there were clearly more than 13. Some of England's colonies in America remained loyal to the Crown; Nova Scotia for instance. If the Province of Quebec boundaries had remained the same it suggests that Canada's southern boundary to the Pacific might be far further south than it is today. There was always the question of New Spain though.
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