Denver Non-Development / Civic Discussion Thread

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

This forum really feels like Denver FUGLY-esque cesspool of angst and laziness where personal attacks go completely unmoderated. I feel like after 14 years on this forum (plus several more as a lurker), I've learned a lot about development, urban planning, and how cities function in general. Lately, it's felt especially unproductive, however, and that just makes me sad. Oh well, time to move on.

These aren’t unrelated. If you harken back to the crime waves of the early 90s - and the general condition of urban America in the decades before that - there wasn’t a lot of development news. Because very few people who had a choice wanted to be in Denver. To assume these discussions are not related to development represents a view on “development, urban planning, and how cities function in general” that is about 14 years old. Somebody said the rhetoric sounds “suburban” - that’s because a precondition for most of today’s urbanites is a quality of life not significantly below what could be had in the suburbs. And somebody else was criticizing the critics for not understanding that living in a city comes with grit and crime. That’s nonsense. And a dangerous position to take for the long term health of our cities, because this is still a country where people have the means to just leave. Nobody wants to live in Gotham. And if you all think that needing Batman to sleep soundly at night is just part of living in a City, then good for you - progressive martyrs all. But you won’t be talking much about new development if you allow this to persist.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

There are businesses leaving downtown due to vagrancy and people are dying in record numbers due to the powerful synthetic drugs that predominate the streets, particularly tent encampments. For the sake of the homeless and the future viability of downtown, this issue needs to be dealt with head on. However, I'm much more in the treatment (possibly mandatory) focused approach rather than penal approach. Report yesterday found fentanyl overdose to now be the number one cause of death for men ages 18-45.

[TakeFive]

Nicely stated

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

There are businesses leaving downtown due to vagrancy and people are dying in record numbers due to the powerful synthetic drugs that predominate the streets, particularly tent encampments. For the sake of the homeless and the future viability of downtown, this issue needs to be dealt with head on. However, I'm much more in the treatment (possibly mandatory) focused approach rather than penal approach. Report yesterday found fentanyl overdose to now be the number one cause of death for men ages 18-45.

'This is not a recreational drug. This is death': Record 1.7M fentanyl pills seized in Arizona
December 16, 2021 By Irene Snyder and FOX 10 Staff

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. - Scottsdale Police and federal officials have announced a record fentanyl bust in the Valley, with nearly 1.7 million pills being taken off the street.

Scottsdale Police Chief Jeff Walther said nearly 1.7 million fentanyl pills (360 pounds) were seized, with an estimated street value of $9 million. Officials say 40% of the pills contain a lethal dose. Just two milligrams of fentanyl can be a lethal dose.

The DEA has warned that Mexican cartels are mass-producing fake prescription pills lined with fentanyl with Arizona serving as a gateway for many of those drugs.

Not mentioned here but elsewhere, drugs like cocaine and Meth are often being laced with fentanyl to double the pleasure (and the addiction).

All Due Respect

Those who preach humane treatments (exclusively) might as well be pulling the lever in the Gas Chamber b/c that's what is happening on the streets. You're, in effect, no different from those who would preach Eugenics.

[TakeFive]

Side Topic: How Things Work

Originally Posted by bunt_q

That’s nonsense. And a dangerous position to take for the long term health of our cities, because this is still a country where people have the means to just leave. Nobody wants to live in Gotham. And if you all think that needing Batman to sleep soundly at night is just part of living in a City, then good for you - progressive martyrs all. But you won’t be talking much about new development if you allow this to persist.

I couldn't agree more!

In 2021, TSMC broke ground on their $12 billion Fab in NW Phoenix. It's an investment that could grow to $50 billion over time. Intel broke ground on what will ultimately be a $20 billion investment in new Fabs in the SE part of the Valley.

Years ago Intel favored Hillsboro OR (outside of Portland) over Phoenix (they still conduct R&D there). But when it came time to expand where did they go? The hell out of Oregon. It goes 'partly' to being more business friendly but these companies consider all manner of things when they're making multi-billion dollar investments.

Yes they are:

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

There are businesses leaving downtown due to vagrancy...

I understand if you don't shop at one of these now-gone businesses you don't care. But there's a bigger picture here that many are missing.

It takes a long time to build up a good reputation as a good place for business. That can go away fast when 'site finders' start rapping about how bad a place has become, when 'word on the street' is Denver has become a shithole.

Meanwhile:

Mexican Cartels are laughing at our "therapy sessions" as they ring up another $billion in profits.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

It really is insane how much fentanyl has taken off. If we weren't approaching 1 million COVID deaths by the end of winter (already there by excess deaths), I feel like we would be talking much more about how the drug trade has changed. I've been pretty anti-war on drugs for a while. I don't think addicted drug users are particularly fit targets for our criminal justice system but people distributing fentanyl and P2P methamphetamines should be fully extirpated from society. Everyone here would be better off and downtown Denver would be a much nicer place to be if there wasn't a black market flooding our streets with pills that can kill elephants, let alone humans.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

These aren’t unrelated. If you harken back to the crime waves of the early 90s - and the general condition of urban America in the decades before that - there wasn’t a lot of development news. Because very few people who had a choice wanted to be in Denver. To assume these discussions are not related to development represents a view on “development, urban planning, and how cities function in general” that is about 14 years old. Somebody said the rhetoric sounds “suburban” - that’s because a precondition for most of today’s urbanites is a quality of life not significantly below what could be had in the suburbs. And somebody else was criticizing the critics for not understanding that living in a city comes with grit and crime. That’s nonsense. And a dangerous position to take for the long term health of our cities, because this is still a country where people have the means to just leave. Nobody wants to live in Gotham. And if you all think that needing Batman to sleep soundly at night is just part of living in a City, then good for you - progressive martyrs all. But you won’t be talking much about new development if you allow this to persist.

That was me directly addressing your unwarranted and weak-ass call for me to experience violence, and trying to not insult you directly. It's a hard thing to do and I have edited out so many insults.

You know what Gotham's problem is? That no one works with each other, none of the neighbors trust each other nor do they help each other, and it's fairly obvious that it's a libertarian billionaire fantasyland where Bruce Wayne and giant corporations can do whatever they want with no consequence and social services are starved. You don't solve social problems like that by empowering an individual to be above the law - that is not justice, no matter what he calls his little group of friends.

And I think you highlight a big problem with the wave of Gen-X and Millennials moving "back" into the city - a lot of people are used to the safe experience of the suburbs and are getting frustrated that the city didn't become the utopian urban centers we were all promised, and the crime is still there so you're slowly becoming like the doomsday-prepping Highlands Ranch gun-toting dads, scared of everything and without clear solutions. That's definitely a failure of city and social leadership. Because a suburban individualistic reaction isn't the best approach to solving problems involving so many people living closely together and it definitely isn't the best approach for making a city healthier.

You could try to build up your community, build better connections and work together with your neighbors instead of creating a police state. Cities aren't only defined by tall buildings but by the people and communities within them and if you want to live amongst thousands of others, it's probably best to get used to working with them all. But what do I know? Stay scared, buy a gun, kill the poor.

[TakeFive]

It's all about those Greenbacks

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

It really is insane how much fentanyl has taken off. If we weren't approaching 1 million COVID deaths by the end of winter (already there by excess deaths), I feel like we would be talking much more about how the drug trade has changed. I've been pretty anti-war on drugs for a while. I don't think addicted drug users are particularly fit targets for our criminal justice system but people distributing fentanyl and P2P methamphetamines should be fully extirpated from society. Everyone here would be better off and downtown Denver would be a much nicer place to be if there wasn't a black market flooding our streets with pills that can kill elephants, let alone humans.

Cartels have been estimated to make as much as $500 billion dollars a year; others would say this figure is too high. It is fair to say the $billions add up quickly. How have Cartels become so sophisticated while remaining street smart? All it takes is enough greenbacks to secure the best knowledge in the world - think China as one good example.

A more conservative view would suggest those that are dumb enough to get addicted will have to live with the consequences; they're not going to worry themselves over a bunch of lowlifes.

Meanwhile a more liberal approach fails to appreciate how powerful these cartels and their drugs are. Finding mules and street peddlers (among the poor) is as easy as falling out of bed. So long as the demand exists the drugs will reach the streets and the drugs are more powerful than the social worker who introduces herself.

[RyanD]

Hey everyone,


I have received numerous complaints about the off-topic nature of the Denver Development Thread. I think the civic issues we are experiencing are a pretty big deal to Denver's well-being so let's discuss that here. Please remain civil, and follow forum rules.


Cheers!


~Your friendly neighborhood Denver moderator

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

And I think you highlight a big problem with the wave of Gen-X and Millennials moving "back" into the city - a lot of people are used to the safe experience of the suburbs and are getting frustrated that the city didn't become the utopian urban centers we were all promised, and the crime is still there so you're slowly becoming like the doomsday-prepping Highlands Ranch gun-toting dads, scared of everything and without clear solutions. That's definitely a failure of city and social leadership. Because a suburban individualistic reaction isn't the best approach to solving problems involving so many people living closely together and it definitely isn't the best approach for making a city healthier.

I'm just curious. Do you view crime as bad?

This post is mostly sensational (colorful) conjecture about anyone who might be concerned about rising crime.

edit: sorry, just saw the above, feel free to move or delete

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...-response.html


Ugh this article is so depressing. Who would have thought 3 years ago we would be talking about urban decay downtown. Although an interesting wrinkle -- which I think I have mentioned before -- is that upper downtown might actually be a bit better off than it was back then, or at least it has bit deteriorated nearly as rapidly (granted its baseline was far worse) as the Union Station side.

The viscous cycle that's occurring is frustrating (pandemic-induced downtown population reductions -> crime opportunities -> more visible crime -> perception that downtown is unsafe -> reduced downtown population reductions). One way to break it is for the law enforcement (DPD, RTD Security, etc.) to crack down further on criminal behavior, which they are 100% not doing due to morale issues, self-imposed work slowdowns, and staffing issues. The DDP's (not exactly a bastion of liberal wokeness) comment at the end of the article on this is telling: DDP to DPD, "Do your job."

[mojiferous]

Everyone keeps posting articles about increasing crime and how dejected the police are, but no one is questioning the source of those articles, which is 99 times out of 100 the police media department or someone from the police union. And I would argue they put these articles out so that you think crime is rising and things are getting worse so that their budget is not threatened.

Because consider that a vast majority of the City's revenue is sales and use taxes, and huge chunks of that is from food and retail and we are now entering the third year of pandemic slowness and depression of retail and food revenue.

The city's budget will likely start to become a larger political issue - in October when the city budget was put together there was a very rosy outlook "the pandemic will ease in 2022" and yet things (and revenue) have not bounced back quite yet. People are getting antsy and a lot of the budgetary decisions are made on Q1 reports. I am sure the DPD is worried that they won't get their requested budget this year if revenue is still depressed and want to make sure the citizenry puts pressure on the mayor and city council to keep it high.

And telling by the attitude here on the forum, and the way no one questions these news stories, that will happen. Instead the city will likely cut budget to other programs - things that could actually combat homelessness or crime, or programs for housing affordability and transportation that are always more questionable politically.

[TakeFive]

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...lifting-losses

DENVER — A Downtown Denver business owner says shoplifting at his stores has gotten so bad he's having to charge customers a fee to make up the costs. Since 2019, he says shoplifting at his downtown and Federal Boulevard stores has tripled. "We're talking about six figures [in losses] for a really small business like us, and that is meaningful.

The problem has also made it harder for him to keep employees as they'd rather work at Park Meadows or Cherry Creek Mall.

Any thoughts on what could be done?

"My hope is that over the course of the coming months, some different approaches are taken to enforcement and police presence and attitudes towards police and the great job that they do protecting businesses like ours," he said.

-----------------------

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Everyone keeps posting articles about increasing crime and how dejected the police are, but no one is questioning the source of those articles, which is 99 times out of 100 the police media department or someone from the police union.

You're like a diamond in the rough, considering all the nut cases on the right who constantly jabber about the "Liberal Media" that to find someone that now claims the media is a conservative conspiracy is quite the rarity.

Problem is real people are being hurt and I'm speaking particularly about retailers. Especially smaller retailers who can't afford to hire armed guards or install sophisticated security systems. Retailers in general will vote with their feet by moving out of downtown and it will be difficult to recruit new retailers given the current conditions. Is this what you want?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by chicago->denver

Bummer - would love to see that hideous parking lot go, especially for a building with some commercial space, which GT seems to lack despite all the people moving into these big box apartments.

I've never actually seen a camp or many people hanging out in that area, but I don't really know what it's like after dark. I gotta say, I hate the term "druggies" - they're really just people. I absolutely understand why the property owner would put up a fence to prevent loitering, though, even if there are no immediate plans to start construction.

So loitering is a problem; get those loiterers who have no good reason to be there out. Unless the loiterers are on drugs, then it's not their fault, they are just people, so we should cut them a break?

I hate the term "terrorists" too. They're maybe a little scary. But they're just people. Who have a different life perspective from my own. And might lash out from time to time, but if you don't bother them, they won't bother you; kinda like wasps. I definitely want a bunch of them chilling on my lawn. Don't quite understand why the rest of you wouldn't.

[chicago->denver]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So loitering is a problem; get those loiterers who have no good reason to be there out. Unless the loiterers are on drugs, then it's not their fault, they are just people, so we should cut them a break?

I hate the term "terrorists" too. They're maybe a little scary. But they're just people. Who have a different life perspective from my own. And might lash out from time to time, but if you don't bother them, they won't bother you; kinda like wasps. I definitely want a bunch of them chilling on my lawn. Don't quite understand why the rest of you wouldn't.

I’m not going to engage with the bulk of that passive aggressive straw man argument, dude. Equating terrorists and people with substance use problems is a false equivalence if ever there was one.

That small comment was intended to gently prompt you and perhaps others on here to consider that the folks we often dismiss as “druggies” (I’ve certainly been guilty of thinking that way, myself) are also people’s sons and daughters and brothers and sisters. My cousin, who was a kind, gentle, and loving young man, died of a heroine overdose at age 23. He had the horrible misfortune of developing the disease of addiction. Most of the people you see on the streets who are using drugs, much like my cousin was, don’t actually bother anyone. They just don’t have the ability to manage their addiction or a safe place to use in privacy. I wish they had more access to treatment and safe use sites, but they don’t.

I believe that the words we use matter. If the problem is “druggies,” then it’s natural to think the solution is “fences” or “police” to keep them away. If the problem is “neighbors, friends, and family members suffering from substance use disorders,” then the solution is a better system of support for addiction management, mental health treatment, assistance securing stable housing, and employment opportunities.

[mhays]

Sure, they're people. We should still get the damage they're causing the rest of us under control. That means more treatment and counseling, and it also means cracking down on behavior and clearing sidewalks.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by chicago->denver

I’m not going to engage with the bulk of that passive aggressive straw man argument, dude. Equating terrorists and people with substance use problems is a false equivalence if ever there was one.

That small comment was intended to gently prompt you and perhaps others on here to consider that the folks we often dismiss as “druggies” (I’ve certainly been guilty of thinking that way, myself) are also people’s sons and daughters and brothers and sisters. My cousin, who was a kind, gentle, and loving young man, died of a heroine overdose at age 23. He had the horrible misfortune of developing the disease of addiction. Most of the people you see on the streets who are using drugs, much like my cousin was, don’t actually bother anyone. They just don’t have the ability to manage their addiction or a safe place to use in privacy. I wish they had more access to treatment and safe use sites, but they don’t.

I believe that the words we use matter. If the problem is “druggies,” then it’s natural to think the solution is “fences” or “police” to keep them away. If the problem is “neighbors, friends, and family members suffering from substance use disorders,” then the solution is a better system of support for addiction management, mental health treatment, assistance securing stable housing, and employment opportunities.

Listen to the impressive Psycho-babble.

Had someone recently pull the "Straw Man" argument on a Sports Blog. Apparently he had recently studied up on his fallacies so he thought he was a 'detection expert.'

It's perfectly fine to use analogies. A false equivalency depends partly on if one can't distinguish one from the other. I think we all understand what a terrorist is but that doesn't mean a comparison is without merit.

Drug Addiction is not a disease in the conventional sense

One who has contracted COVID, the flu or something even worse has an "intense craving" to get better and will do whatever is necessary or will help.

Whatever your solution is; It's not working

Opioid Addiction et al has been getting worse and worse and not better for many years. Whatever those who preach tolerance and treatment have been fighting a losing battler. Call Putin; he'll fix it.

How much money do you have invested in the $2 billion of RE investment in Union Square. How many $3,000 to $10,000 bikes have you had stolen knowing the cops can't help you because thief's get an automatic "Get out of Jail free card? How many retail businesses have you owned that went out of business due to 'shop lifting?' Talk about lack of empathy or comprehension.

I don't lack empathy or sympathy with respect to drug addicts. But People; Residents; Citizens; VOTERS want to 'hire' somebody who can fix the problem - or at the least show evidence that things are getting better and NOT WORSE.

[chicago->denver]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Listen to the impressive Psycho-babble.

Look man, we don’t need to waste each other’s time or take any more space on this forum arguing about this. It’s clear we’re not going to convince each other of anything, and I’d rather the conversation not get any more unpleasant than it already has. Even though I disagree with some of the stuff you and others say, I legitimately appreciate your updates on development happening in Denver, so I will try to just stick to that.

[TakeFive]

This is Personal

Can Denver arrest its way out of the problems at Union Station?
April 3, 2022 By Kyle Harris/Denverite

We asked experts if the strategy will effectively help stop drug use and dealing in Denver. The answer? “Everybody knows it’s not effective.”

I couldn't care less how they fix this issue; I couldn't care less who gets the credit. If these so-called experts can fix this then have at it; prove to us your expertise.

During my last visit to Denver/Silverthorne in June of 2017 for my late brother's memorial, I walked every block in the DUS neighborhood. I rode most of the trains. The place was simply awesome. Simply stated, it needs to be awesome again, like NOW.