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  #13961  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2020, 8:34 PM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
here's a list here that includes the 2 on the spur line and a couple others:
https://wikidelphia.org/List_of_ghost_transit_stations

these articles have an interesting overview of the history of plans that started but never finished:
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2013/...ays-find-them/

https://hiddencityphila.org/2018/04/...t-subway-line/

we also have the city branch tunnel/cut that was used for freight that sits unused. There is a freight station at broad and noble that is now used as an internet switching hub. It would be great from an urban planning perspective to use at least some of these resources (franklin square station was at least planned to open before the pandemic), but I have a feeling a lot of this will change as we deal with an expanded work from home culture and social distancing from living with a pandemic. I'm sure there're are plenty of ways to make transit safe and effective in this environment, but are probably cost-prohibitive.
The Zoo station coming back would be very nice, any word on the progress of that?

Also the wiki article says the tracks and tunnel are under Rittenhouse square, that's a whole other station that can be put into service.

I think anything inside philly just needs to be Septa and/or Septa pass usable, it would make the whole city much better to get around.
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  #13962  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 3:15 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
The Zoo station coming back would be very nice, any word on the progress of that?

Also the wiki article says the tracks and tunnel are under Rittenhouse square, that's a whole other station that can be put into service.

I think anything inside philly just needs to be Septa and/or Septa pass usable, it would make the whole city much better to get around.
The tracks under rittenhouse are used as train storage to prepare for faster eastbound headways in the evening rush hour. It's not as simple as just putting a station at Rittenhouse. Even something like that, it would be an enormous undertaking and nowhere near worthwhile for putting in a single new stop, a 5 min walk away from the nearest existing stop. There are roughly a million things that could be done to improve Philly's transit system that would be more effective and more efficient.

Regarding the pass, septa doesn't own patco, they can't force them to accept their cards. Though one thinks it should be possible considering patco cards can be used on septa.
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  #13963  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 3:27 AM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
The tracks under rittenhouse are used as train storage to prepare for faster eastbound headways in the evening rush hour. It's not as simple as just putting a station at Rittenhouse. Even something like that, it would be an enormous undertaking and nowhere near worthwhile for putting in a single new stop, a 5 min walk away from the nearest existing stop. There are roughly a million things that could be done to improve Philly's transit system that would be more effective and more efficient.

Regarding the pass, septa doesn't own patco, they can't force them to accept their cards. Though one thinks it should be possible considering patco cards can be used on septa.
That makes sense, unless patco was extended to Jefferson like someone else mentioned, It wouldn't be worth it.

I mean as you see Philly has the rail service, it's just provided by different rail companies, if they could just come up with a plan for connected Local/Regional rail service that uses one card it would solve a lot of issues. Come up with a new name while your at it call it PNJTA -Philadelphia-New Jersey Transit Authority.
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  #13964  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 4:27 AM
Nanyika Nanyika is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
The tracks under rittenhouse are used as train storage to prepare for faster eastbound headways in the evening rush hour. It's not as simple as just putting a station at Rittenhouse. Even something like that, it would be an enormous undertaking and nowhere near worthwhile for putting in a single new stop, a 5 min walk away from the nearest existing stop. There are roughly a million things that could be done to improve Philly's transit system that would be more effective and more efficient.
Obviously, building a new station at Rittenhouse Square would not be cheap. At present, the tracks form a loop that reaches only around a third of the way under the square. In order to construct a station at 19th & Walnut, the tracks would have to be straightened, reconfigured, and extended slightly. That could mean tearing up a section of the square.

But whether or not the cost would be "worthwhile" is another question. For example, if the Ridge Avenue Spur were reconnected to the Locust St. Subway, it would enable people to travel from North Philadelphia to Rittenhouse Square in a snap. And even more elaborate things could be done (at additional cost, of course)! For example, constructing a direct train connection onto the Market-Frankford line with a switch at 8th & Market would give MFL riders the alternative of taking a train directly to 19th & Walnut, which would be closer to many central business destinations than the 15th & Market Station is.

Subway systems are the most efficient means of public transportation in dense urban centers, like Philadelphia. Before the pandemic, the crowded and slow-moving bus system in Philadelphia (you could often walk faster than the buses carried you!) cried out for an alternative. Cities like Washington, D.C., built an entire subway system in recent decades using federal money, but it has been a great many years since Philadelphia has made any progress in fulfilling plans to extend our own system. Once federal funding becomes available again, we should move fast on the more significant measures, such as building the Northeast Extension of the BSL, etc. And a far less costly, but still significant step, in my opinion, would involve reconnecting the Locust Street Subway and a new station at Rittenhouse Sq.
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  #13965  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 5:14 AM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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SEPTA already has to deal with people not using the Broad-Ridge Spur because it is so close to the regular BSL stations. No offense, but 19th and walnut is only a 10 minute walk to broad st, and would just become another unloved stump. Priorities are expansion to the Navy Yard, renovations to existing stations, and bus overhaul. I wouldn't expect anything to happen until those things are finished.
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  #13966  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 12:55 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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SEPTA already has to deal with people not using the Broad-Ridge Spur because it is so close to the regular BSL stations. No offense, but 19th and walnut is only a 10 minute walk to broad st, and would just become another unloved stump. Priorities are expansion to the Navy Yard, renovations to existing stations, and bus overhaul. I wouldn't expect anything to happen until those things are finished.
Only a massive federal program would lead to new stations and grandiose projects. OUtside of that, they will not EVER happen.
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  #13967  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nanyika View Post

Subway systems are the most efficient means of public transportation in dense urban centers, like Philadelphia. Before the pandemic, the crowded and slow-moving bus system in Philadelphia (you could often walk faster than the buses carried you!) cried out for an alternative.
This is a really important point. A short term fix would be to limit or eliminate car traffic on certain streets to prioritize bus traffic. But really, some type of underground circulator is what is really needed
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  #13968  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 2:00 PM
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Good summary of all the issues re: a changing Washington Avenue here.
https://whyy.org/articles/developers...ington-avenue/

One little piece, I didn't know about:

"The owners of the two-story industrial building at 2031 Washington Avenue want to add four additional floors and 30 residential units, including a two-level penthouse for themselves. The penthouse would have a swimming pool, sauna, basketball court, three kitchens, and multiple rooftop decks, according to plans presented Wednesday to the Zoning Board of Appeals."

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  #13969  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 2:22 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia View Post
Good summary of all the issues re: a changing Washington Avenue here.
https://whyy.org/articles/developers...ington-avenue/

One little piece, I didn't know about:

"The owners of the two-story industrial building at 2031 Washington Avenue want to add four additional floors and 30 residential units, including a two-level penthouse for themselves. The penthouse would have a swimming pool, sauna, basketball court, three kitchens, and multiple rooftop decks, according to plans presented Wednesday to the Zoning Board of Appeals."

It's amazing to consider how much redevelopment has been done on Washington Ave West in the last few years. Still, when you drive it, there's soo much more work to be done there before you'd go, "wow this is a nice stretch." It's filthy and most of the industrial storefronts are either poorly maintained or not maintained at all and the width of the road accompanied by little to no pedestrian energy creates a feeling of desolation. Pumped for that new Aldi tho.
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  #13970  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 2:35 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
It's amazing to consider how much redevelopment has been done on Washington Ave West in the last few years. Still, when you drive it, there's soo much more work to be done there before you'd go, "wow this is a nice stretch." It's filthy and most of the industrial storefronts are either poorly maintained or not maintained at all and the width of the road accompanied by little to no pedestrian energy creates a feeling of desolation. Pumped for that new Aldi tho.
The Washington Ave revitalization is in the very earliest phase of the beginning stage. It seems like it could pick up velocity very quickly, though.
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  #13971  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2020, 5:00 PM
eixample eixample is offline
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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
This is a really important point. A short term fix would be to limit or eliminate car traffic on certain streets to prioritize bus traffic. But really, some type of underground circulator is what is really needed
My vote is for banning cars on designated streets and trying aboveground circulators (buses) -- a very low cost endeavor -- before spending billions on an underground circulator. People underestimate how much more reliable bus service could be if we take steps to give buses priority over cars.
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  #13972  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2020, 3:22 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by Nanyika View Post
Obviously, building a new station at Rittenhouse Square would not be cheap. At present, the tracks form a loop that reaches only around a third of the way under the square. In order to construct a station at 19th & Walnut, the tracks would have to be straightened, reconfigured, and extended slightly. That could mean tearing up a section of the square.

But whether or not the cost would be "worthwhile" is another question. For example, if the Ridge Avenue Spur were reconnected to the Locust St. Subway, it would enable people to travel from North Philadelphia to Rittenhouse Square in a snap. And even more elaborate things could be done (at additional cost, of course)! For example, constructing a direct train connection onto the Market-Frankford line with a switch at 8th & Market would give MFL riders the alternative of taking a train directly to 19th & Walnut, which would be closer to many central business destinations than the 15th & Market Station is.

Subway systems are the most efficient means of public transportation in dense urban centers, like Philadelphia. Before the pandemic, the crowded and slow-moving bus system in Philadelphia (you could often walk faster than the buses carried you!) cried out for an alternative. Cities like Washington, D.C., built an entire subway system in recent decades using federal money, but it has been a great many years since Philadelphia has made any progress in fulfilling plans to extend our own system. Once federal funding becomes available again, we should move fast on the more significant measures, such as building the Northeast Extension of the BSL, etc. And a far less costly, but still significant step, in my opinion, would involve reconnecting the Locust Street Subway and a new station at Rittenhouse Sq.
All the various suggestions you have regarding the Broad Ridge Spur and the El are frankly irrelevant to the question of whether or not is worthwhile to extend the patco line to Rittenhouse Square. You could make all of those connections and people could end up at 16th and Locust, which is not appreciably different to ending up at Rittenhouse Square which is 2 blocks and a leisurely 5 minute walk away. Money is a very distinct reality and you can only do so much, there is no way you could convince me that extending a subway line 2 blocks at great expense would be an efficient use of money.

Speaking of money, while you'll find no disagreements from regarding the value of a subway system, SEPTA has no money. It's all well and good to suggest that SEPTA should acquire federal money to build new subway lines, but the realty is that hasn't actually happened in roughly 70 years. And it's not as though SEPTA doesn't try to get federal funding, but they can barely scrape together funding to maintain the subway system they have. And even setting aside federal funding, SEPTA receives far less government funding of any kind that just about any major transit system in america, largely due to poor funding it receives from Pennsylvania as compared to state funding for other systems. I believe SEPTA has less government funding per rider than any system in the country.

So again, all for subways. But adding any type of subway line or extension to Septa's system would a major uphill battle and to fight that type of battle and make extending a subway line 2 blocks a priority of such a battle simply doesn't make sense.

I do love your ideas though and while the funding I'm pessimistic about, I think they're actually more possible than people realize. I believe Philly owns the actual patco subway tracks in philly and just leases them to patco, so I think it's possible that Philly could decide to utilize those tracks better if the opportunity arrose.
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  #13973  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2020, 6:09 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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Residents support reducing Washington Avenue to three driving lanes in South Philly

Good article about future repaving and a reworking of Washington Ave. Hope they widen the sidewalks in a few locations too. This will help with the further redevelopment of Washington Ave for sure.

Read more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20200717.html
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  #13974  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2020, 9:37 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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The city really needs to start listening to its residents, especially now. If it doesn't go with the 3-lane approach on washington, then it's making a huge mistake. It will just give people the idea that it's just more of the same. It's already hard enough getting the city to agree to bike lanes, mid-block crossings or any other pedestrian-focused improvement. Covid is more than likely here to stay as more research is indicating that any vaccination will only provide temporary immunity. The city needs to start planning for the fact that people will need to be spread out for the long term. Other cities are closing down streets or drastically reducing their size to allow for more pedestrians and cyclists. There's also an idea of the 15-minute city that seems to be gaining attention, where all your amenities can be reached within a 15-minute walk. This would result in nodes of medium density spread out across the city, instead of of one centralized pocket of extreme density. the pandemic has forced ahead trends that were already starting with remote working and online retail. Even if the pandemic ends tomorrow, the damage is done. the focus needs to be on getting people to want to continue living in a city, because those reasons are starting to slip away. We need to make it easy for takeout food and drinks, provide outdoor space where people can spread out, make it easy to get across town on bike, start moving art and cultural pieces that can be out into the open. commercial corridors will need to be less centralized as there will be more than likely a shift to remote working. retail will need to cater to the resident vs the commuter. There are a lot of articles out there ringing the death knell for cities and I don't want that to happen.
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  #13975  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 2:57 AM
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25+ Units + Retail Planned Across the Street from Dalessandro’s in Roxborough





Read more here:
http://www.rising.realestate/25-unit...-dalessandros/
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  #13976  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 12:42 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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25+ Units + Retail Planned Across the Street from Dalessandro’s in Roxborough

That's a nice upgrade.

I'm impressed with how Roxborough is managing to form a real sense of place. I always thought of it as NW Philadelphia's version of NE Philadelphia...sorta non-descript.

But it's really becoming a little locus of activity in and of itself. And the quality of new construction is impressive.
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  #13977  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 2:22 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
The city really needs to start listening to its residents, especially now. If it doesn't go with the 3-lane approach on washington, then it's making a huge mistake. It will just give people the idea that it's just more of the same. It's already hard enough getting the city to agree to bike lanes, mid-block crossings or any other pedestrian-focused improvement. Covid is more than likely here to stay as more research is indicating that any vaccination will only provide temporary immunity. The city needs to start planning for the fact that people will need to be spread out for the long term. Other cities are closing down streets or drastically reducing their size to allow for more pedestrians and cyclists. There's also an idea of the 15-minute city that seems to be gaining attention, where all your amenities can be reached within a 15-minute walk. This would result in nodes of medium density spread out across the city, instead of of one centralized pocket of extreme density. the pandemic has forced ahead trends that were already starting with remote working and online retail. Even if the pandemic ends tomorrow, the damage is done. the focus needs to be on getting people to want to continue living in a city, because those reasons are starting to slip away. We need to make it easy for takeout food and drinks, provide outdoor space where people can spread out, make it easy to get across town on bike, start moving art and cultural pieces that can be out into the open. commercial corridors will need to be less centralized as there will be more than likely a shift to remote working. retail will need to cater to the resident vs the commuter. There are a lot of articles out there ringing the death knell for cities and I don't want that to happen.
This seems to be an overreaction. Yes, it is possible that a vaccination may provide only temporary "near-absolute" immunity but if so we will still likely see a healthier immune response (reduction of symptoms / severity) for longer periods of time. There is also nothing to suggest that we can't simply receive a yearly shot, possibly even combined with a flu shot. I think the suggestion that we need to rethink our cities is premature at best.

If the pandemic were to end tomorrow, things would mostly go back to normal. It will take time for businesses to recover or for new businesses to fill vacancies, and you may see a reduction in rents as companies have realized they don't need quite as much office space as they thought, but people who choose to live in cities largely do so for reasons that a pandemic does not negate once it has been overcome.

That said, Washington should absolutely be reduced to three car lanes. That's just good urbanism before, during, and after Covid.
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  #13978  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 3:28 PM
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Aaamazarite Aaamazarite is offline
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A couple of University City updates I've noticed/heard about over the past few days:

4014 Ludlow: 80+ room Sonder Hotel, excavation has begun

4050 Ludlow: Permit changed to 65 Units. Breaking ground in January-- I guess the new owner is going to find out the hard way if the Rose Family Burial Ground is still under there.

43rd and Chestnut Alterra project: Steel above ground now, should see the modular units soon

12-24 S 43rd: 18 Unit Building nearly framed out

4415 Ludlow: Orens Bros 30-Unit building, steel above ground now

4101 Ludlow (old red church): Being cleaned out now, will become rock-climbing gym.

4200 Ludlow: 96-unit building nearly complete

Things I can't tell you about: Two future 20+-story buildings that have nothing to do with UCity Square or Schuylkill Yards, two (possibly three) major property transactions to big developers who've (to my knowledge) never built in U City before, a developer with two upcoming approved apartment proposals has purchased the adjacent properties of both to expand upon them, and the 40th Street commercial corridor just below Market has some nice leases signed for new stores/restaurants.

Last edited by Aaamazarite; Jul 20, 2020 at 4:52 PM.
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  #13979  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 3:49 PM
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^^Awesome. Thanks for the updates

Surprised to see a hotel moving forward in this climate. Maybe because Sonder seems to be a quasi apartment/hotel concept?
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  #13980  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 5:37 PM
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45 Units + Artist Studios Rising Near the Berks El Stop

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Current site/progress:


Read more here:
http://www.rising.realestate/45-unit...QzczbJh-HYdNLg
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