HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #26981  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 5:23 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Do you really think that's remotely possible?
No idea - but I intend to waste an inordinate amount of time on my 3 day weekend to find out as much information on this as possible before I come to anything resembling a conclusion.

Quote:
I don't have the time or the inclination to try and turn myself into a vaccination expert by going through those links and trying to dig down to the truth.
See above.
Quote:
If there's a big issue with vaccinations, the truth will come out as time passes. It's true we didn't have the luxury of longer time trials. I have no problem with the way vaccine manufacturers and governments carefully rushed this much needed technology to beat back COVID.
You're right. But it would be a shame to permanently ruin the lives of millions of young adults in the process all because we cant have a public conversation about the alleged risks here.

It would seem prudent to at least explore these allegations and, if wrong, shoot them down.

Reading paragraphs like this is terrifying;

Quote:
For 900 patients of Dr. Hoffe, 3 are permanently disabled and 1 died. Dr. Hoffe wasn’t afraid to speak out but telling the truth resulted in him losing his hospital privileges and having his reports torn up. Ask yourself, why would any doctor jeopardize their livelihood? He isn’t an anti-VAXer; he was pro-vaccination. He vaccinated 900 patients. He felt compelled to write up his serious concerns, basically “I have been quite alarmed at the high rate of serious side-effects from this novel treatment.” If the vaccine is as safe as they claim, you never see notes like that. Nobody has the time or incentive. Why would anyone draft such a detailed note to get fired?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26982  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 6:45 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 16,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Do you really think that's remotely possible?

I don't have the time or the inclination to try and turn myself into a vaccination expert by going through those links and trying to dig down to the truth.

If there's a big issue with vaccinations, the truth will come out as time passes. It's true we didn't have the luxury of longer time trials. I have no problem with the way vaccine manufacturers and governments carefully rushed this much needed technology to beat back COVID.
Why do you think this "information" is only on obscure websites? (And how did you end up there?) Perhaps you think the media that raked governments over the coals for: not having enough PPE, not closing borders, not having enough vaccine etc etc was suddenly willing to give governments a pass on vaccines that maim and kill....
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26983  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 6:49 PM
theman23's Avatar
theman23 theman23 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ville de Québec
Posts: 3,356
When the entire adult population is being mass immunized in a short period of time, we’re obviously going to see a VAERs spike. Essentially every moderate or severe illness within 30 days of being vaccinated is being reported.
__________________
For entertainment purposes only. Not financial advice.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26984  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 6:55 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Why do you think this "information" is only on obscure websites? (And how did you end up there?) Perhaps you think the media that raked governments over the coals for: not having enough PPE, not closing borders, not having enough vaccine etc etc was suddenly willing to give governments a pass on vaccines that maim and kill....
I ended up there, because the man who literally invented mRNA vaccines is saying they should not be used on young adult and children populations.

The dude who made the thing thinks its a bad idea.

Would you at least not want to know why?

How close minded can you be?

To be clear, maybe he's wrong, but the unwillingness to hear the information is concerning to say the least.

And using media as some kind of standard? Really? The media has done nothing but shamed it self over the last half decade, its an embarrassment of what it used to be.

This info is on obscure sites because journalism, with very few notable exceptions is dead. Journalists exposed niche, and hard to find information. That's the job. The job is not to tell you your opinion.

Further, anything that's even slightly compelling is labellaed a conspiracy theory - but again, its the medias job to uncover these and front run them. Ever heard of the Panama Papers? That's journalism that once was a conspiracy.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26985  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:08 PM
theman23's Avatar
theman23 theman23 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ville de Québec
Posts: 3,356
Who invented the mRNA vaccine? This sounds like the same kind of appeal to authority that race theorists use when referencing James Watson.
__________________
For entertainment purposes only. Not financial advice.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26986  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:12 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
Who invented the mRNA vaccine? This sounds like the same kind of appeal to authority that race theorists use when referencing James Watson.
Dr. Robert Malone

https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us

I don't know enough about him yet, but I do know he is being very vocal about the risks of using this on kids, particularly females, as it appears the spiked proteins do no remain in the arm, but rather distribute throughout the body, with the highest amounts being detected in the ovaries.

I do not want to pretend that I'm even an armchair doctor, but I do intend to give all this a fair shot, especially looking at the raw data without reading a narrative about it.

I have my first jab of Moderna, seem to be side effect free.

Also - how jaded are some of you guys? I mean this respectfully - but do you always just assume that if the narrative is not that of the mainstream, it has to come from a racist, bigot, conspiracy theorist? Its kind of a perplexing division that's occurred in the last decade or so.

This is just like the lab leak with Covid. It was literally banned to be spoken about on platforms for a year, and now its growing more and more likely. This whole idea of dismissing the data because of the messenger is insane, and not something that should be encouraged.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26987  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:14 PM
travis3000's Avatar
travis3000 travis3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 4,944
574 Cases In ON Today

-29K Tests Processed
-Positivity Rate Of 2.0%
-4 Deaths

-489 In Hospitals (-27)
-440 In ICU (-10)

-10.83 Million Doses Of Vaccines Administered (+199.9K)

-62.2% Of ALL Ontarians Have Received At Least 1 Dose
-71.3% Of Ontarians 12 Years+ Have Received At Least 1 Dose
-73.7% Of Adults In Ontario (18+) Have Received At Least 1 Dose
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26988  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:16 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,715
I'm not very confident in the data that guy's presenting, because the way that he presents it is unscientific and imprecise. His very first claim is that there have been "at least 6,000 deaths from the vaccine." Does he mean in the US? Or worldwide? He never makes this clear. And which vaccine? There are several and they're all different. Does he mean Moderna specifically? He never makes this clear. He just keeps referring to "the vaccine".

It also flies in the face of what the experience has been in Canada so far (if our government is also covering "this" up then why didn't they cover up the VITT issues?)

It's good to ask questions and be cautious but something feels really off about this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26989  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:20 PM
travis3000's Avatar
travis3000 travis3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 4,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
I'm not very confident in the data that guy's presenting, because the way that he presents it is unscientific and imprecise. His very first claim is that there have been "at least 6,000 deaths from the vaccine." Does he mean in the US? Or worldwide? He never makes this clear. And which vaccine? There are several and they're all different. Does he mean Moderna specifically? He never makes this clear.

It also flies in the face of what the experience has been in Canada so far in terms of negative side effects.

It's good to ask questions and be cautious but something feels really off about this.
All the conspiracy information is always presented in the same way:

"Breaking News, New Information, We Made A Huge Mistake, Thousands Of Deaths, Unknown Future Effects, All Proven In Medical Journals, etc".

The data is always vague, rarely backed up, misinterpreted, shock value, big bold headlines, spread via social media, sources are discredited/retired doctors, from shady websites nobody has ever heard of, etc. It has all the makings of click bait. I've actually become pretty good at deciphering fake news online now. They all look very similar.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26990  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:21 PM
theman23's Avatar
theman23 theman23 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ville de Québec
Posts: 3,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by rofina View Post
Dr. Robert Malone

https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us

I don't know enough about him yet, but I do know he is being very vocal about the risks of using this on kids, particularly females, as it appears the spiked proteins do no remain in the arm, but rather distribute throughout the body, with the highest amounts being detected in the ovaries.

I do not want to pretend that I'm even an armchair doctor, but I do intend to give all this a fair shot, especially looking at the raw data without reading a narrative about it.

I have my first jab of Moderna, seem to be side effect free.

Also - how jaded are some of you guys? I mean this respectfully - but do you always just assume that if the narrative is not that of the mainstream, it has to come from a racist, bigot, conspiracy theorist? Its kind of a perplexing division that's occurred in the last decade or so.

This is just like the lab leak with Covid. It was literally banned to be spoken about on platforms for a year, and now its growing more and more likely. This whole idea of dismissing the data because of the messenger is insane, and not something that should be encouraged.
Oh you meant the self proclaimed inventor of the mRNA vaccine who now works as a life coach.
Not sure why you’re worried about the spike protein. A quick google search shows that your fears were only demonstrated in people who had the infection, not the vaccine.
__________________
For entertainment purposes only. Not financial advice.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26991  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:22 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
Oh you meant the self proclaimed inventor of the mRNA vaccine.

Not sure why you’re worried about the spike protein. A quick google search shows that your fears were only demonstrated in people who had the infection.
I don't even know if I am worried. I haven't dove deep enough to decide, that's this weekends reading.

I posted it for discussion hoping that someone who knows more than me on the topic has.

EDIT: Where do you get self professed inventor? I'm serious, I want to know if this guy is a kook.

The Wiki says he was part of the original team, with citation.

Quote:
In 1989, Robert W. Malone, P. Felgner, et. al. developed a high-efficiency in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection system using cationic liposomes, which were used "to directly introduce RNA into whole tissues and embryos", as well as various cells types. The term and idea of "RNA as a drug" is first described in this paper. [15] Then, in 1990, Jon A. Wolff, Robert W Malone, et. al. demonstrated the idea of nucleic acid-encoded drugs by direct injecting in vitro transcribed (IVT) mRNA or plasmid DNA (pDNA) into the skeletal muscle of mice which expressed the encoded protein in the injected muscle. These studies were the first evidence that in vitro transcribed (IVT) mRNA could deliver the genetic information to produce proteins within living cell tissue. [16][17]

The first mRNA vaccine experiments were carried out by P. Felgner, J. Wolff, G. Rhodes, R.W. Malone and D. Carson. P. They completed a number of mRNA vaccination studies that resulted in nine patents on mRNA vaccination with a shared priority date of March 21, 1989. One experiment documented that NEF (an HIV protein) mRNA vaccination in mice, followed by HIV challenge reduced positively stained cells by 2-fold and p24 expression was reduced by 50% at eight weeks. [18][19][20]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26992  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:29 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
I'm not very confident in the data that guy's presenting, because the way that he presents it is unscientific and imprecise. His very first claim is that there have been "at least 6,000 deaths from the vaccine." Does he mean in the US? Or worldwide? He never makes this clear. And which vaccine? There are several and they're all different. Does he mean Moderna specifically? He never makes this clear. He just keeps referring to "the vaccine".
He is speaking to mRNA vaccines specifically.

Quote:
It also flies in the face of what the experience has been in Canada so far (if our government is also covering "this" up then why didn't they cover up the VITT issues?)

It's good to ask questions and be cautious but something feels really off about this.
Very much agree. Which is why additional reading is warranted.

The raw data he posts from Israel seems to back his assertions, and as we know Israel is probably the most complete data set available.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26993  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:33 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by rofina View Post
Also - how jaded are some of you guys? I mean this respectfully - but do you always just assume that if the narrative is not that of the mainstream, it has to come from a racist, bigot, conspiracy theorist? Its kind of a perplexing division that's occurred in the last decade or so.

This is just like the lab leak with Covid. It was literally banned to be spoken about on platforms for a year, and now its growing more and more likely. This whole idea of dismissing the data because of the messenger is insane, and not something that should be encouraged.
I'm not jaded... I'm just not a doctor or a scientist, so I take my cues from the experts. Mainstream ones.

If there is something to what this one guy is saying, then I'm sure other physicians will sit up and take notice accordingly. This is how the process works. Like you, I do not believe there is some kind of conspiracy to squelch dissenting voices. If there is truth to what he is saying, then the various medical authorities, organizations, governments and such will get behind it. Simple as that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26994  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:37 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,715
It's not even clear what his assertions are though. Which vaccine is he talking about? Moderna? That's not what they used in Israel. Pfizer is also an mRNA vaccine, but they're not exactly the same. "The mRNA vaccine" isn't a thing. If he's making a case against mRNA vaccine technology in general then this is a very sloppy and unreliable way of doing it.

Honestly it sounds like this guy's ideas are either half-baked and ultimately wrong or else he's deliberately just trying to scare people out of getting any COVID vaccine.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26995  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:38 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I'm not jaded... I'm just not a doctor or a scientist, so I take my cues from the experts. Mainstream ones.

If there is something to what this one guy is saying, then I'm sure other physicians will sit up and take notice accordingly. This is how the process works. Like you, I do not believe there is some kind of conspiracy to squelch dissenting voices. If there is truth to what he is saying, then the various medical authorities, organizations, governments and such will get behind it. Simple as that.
Definitely - a process that needs to happen.

The point I was trying to make is that consensus is not always correct.

I don't want to harp on the lab leak, but its pertinent here.

It was declared the main hypothesis and platform disabled conversation about alternative hypothesis. This was not done with the backing of science.
This is specifically what I find worrying.

It seems to go something like this;

event happens --> main narrative declared --> media runs with it --> alternate view points labelled conspiracy or fringe --> fact checkers and platforms disable debate --> additional information comes to light --> discussion opens --> narrative changes --> media hops on board --> "conspiracy theory" no longer

Its not a healthy cycle. We need the information, and we need to be able to talk about it.

If its bogus, completely fine, that's the point of talking about it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26996  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:39 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
It's not even clear what his assertions are though. Which vaccine is he talking about? Moderna? That's not what they used in Israel.

Honestly it sounds like this guy's ideas are either half-baked and ultimately wrong or else he's deliberately just trying to scare people out of getting any COVID vaccine.
No. Not at all. He's saying its likely very damaging to certain population segments. Young people especially.

He's speaking to mRNA vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna being 2 examples.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26997  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:45 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,715
Quote:
Originally Posted by rofina View Post
No. Not at all. He's saying its likely very damaging to certain population segments. Young people especially.
Except he leads off with (emphasis mine):

Quote:
I always get vaccinated. I have been fully vaccinated with the Moderna COVID vaccine.

However, based on what I now know about the vaccine side effects, current COVID rates, and the success rate of early treatment protocols, the answer I would give today to anyone asking me for advice as to whether to take any of the current vaccines would be, “Just say NO.”
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26998  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 7:48 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by rofina View Post
Definitely - a process that needs to happen.

The point I was trying to make is that consensus is not always correct.

I don't want to harp on the lab leak, but its pertinent here.

It was declared the main hypothesis and platform disabled conversation about alternative hypothesis. This was not done with the backing of science.
This is specifically what I find worrying.

It seems to go something like this;

event happens --> main narrative declared --> media runs with it --> alternate view points labelled conspiracy or fringe --> fact checkers and platforms disable debate --> additional information comes to light --> discussion opens --> narrative changes --> media hops on board --> "conspiracy theory" no longer

Its not a healthy cycle. We need the information, and we need to be able to talk about it.

If its bogus, completely fine, that's the point of talking about it.
I don't think it matters much what the media or people on this forum say. It matters what experts in the field conclude based on their review of the assertions and their own research. What reason is there to believe that some knowledgeable people haven't already looked into, or aren't already looking into what Dr. Malone is saying? Let them do their thing. They'll let us know what's up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26999  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 8:09 PM
rofina rofina is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I don't think it matters much what the media or people on this forum say. It matters what experts in the field conclude based on their review of the assertions and their own research. What reason is there to believe that some knowledgeable people haven't already looked into, or aren't already looking into what Dr. Malone is saying? Let them do their thing. They'll let us know what's up.
You're not wrong - but being surprisingly nonchalant about the possibility of Dr. Malone being correct.

If that indeed proves to be the case given some time, then the damage will be unbelievable and the medical professionals slow to act on this will be to blame.

That said, you're definitely right, time will tell. I just hope it doesn't take too long for the wrong reasons when instead we could be holding public debate to iron this out asap before damage is done.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27000  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 8:13 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by rofina View Post
You're not wrong - but being surprisingly nonchalant about the possibility of Dr. Malone being correct.
I'm simply not in a position to determine if Dr. Malone is correct. This is why I rely on medical experts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:26 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.