Cycling Activists Try Opportunism

[PortaPetee]

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[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Summerville

Perhaps I should be honest and direct.

The issue that I have is Keith's vitriol, which done in the way that Keith chooses does not contribute to the Forum.

Months ago Keith made what seemed to me to be a personal attack against Erica Butler, which I thought was slanderous at the time. I thought of calling Keith out.

Keith continually attacks Sam Austen. I'm sure that Sam has a thick skin by now and he chose to be in the public light.

But I know both of Erica and Sam. I used to work with Sam and Erica is a parent at my kid's school. I don't think that they have shares in a bicycle company. They aren't planning to make a personal profit from the things that they believe in. They have aspirations for this city like most of us.

Kourash Rad has probably contributed more to this city in one minute than many of us have. But heck,...let's attack him as a person to make our point.

I've only been coming to this site for the last 5-10 years. Its really your Forum. You can choose to do nothing.

But if you are going to do anything, cut back on the personal attacks. They have little value for people that are excited about the new development in this city and want a venue to discuss what is happening.

I've lived here my whole life. I love the fact that Halifax is developing in the way that it does. I might be in the 1% but I love tall and well designed buildings and also I love biking to work in this city. I've been biking to work for the last 20 years. And dealing with land is my profession,...and it what my family has done as well.

Cut back on the personal attacks and BS. I know that it will mean that Keith has less to say. But I don't think that many of the people that come to this site want to see a thread where old men gripe about change.

Thanks for your honest and direct input. Since you quoted my post, obviously something I wrote had a negative effect on you as well, so I will try to do my part and not participate in negative threads like this, even if I agree with them or have thoughts about it that are not positive. I will also do my best to not react to posters when they present a condescending viewpoint or post something negative about something I feel positive about - there's no point in extending the negativity even further.

I will not ignore ageism, though, as I think the continual comments and generalizations about 'boomers' or 'old men' (as in the last line of your post) are not appropriate, just like negative generalizations about 'millennials' are also inappropriate and not welcome. Ageism makes my experience here a negative one.

To be honest, I have tired of the divisiveness that has attacked our society - you read more right vs left, millennial vs boomer, bicycle vs car, etc. etc. than anything else these days... and not enough meeting in the middle. Let's try to get back to meeting in the middle - have discussions instead of arguments - that would make my experience here a little more positive, because like you I have considered leaving many times, and have for periods in the past - but I have too much interest in my city to stay away too long.

Can't speak for others, but I will try my best to keep things on the positive side, and in fact I may just limit my posts to the more historical aspects of Halifax. I really love watching our city being built up with all the amazing new structures filling out our downtown and other areas, but admittedly I don't have the level of enthusiasm for tall buildings that others have - I like them when they are well done, but not so much when they are not (by purely subjective judgement on my part).

Maybe I should just read and not comment, or just find a more productive way to use my time...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

IMHO you are not the problem here, FWIW

Thanks! I appreciate that!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for the input, I'll try to curb any negative aspects of my posts in the future, and not become involved in threads such as this.

Also, I'm thinking that in the future, if a new thread pops up that is basically negative and non-productive, that maybe the mods should nuke it, to keep things on a more positive keel.

For the record I was not thinking about your posting or anybody in particular. If mods have an issue with posting they deal with it through private messages and deleting. But there need to be open discussions sometimes too.

(You guys might not see the truly bad stuff, thankfully rare, like spam or very explicit harassment that just gets deleted no questions asked.)

Another point I will make is that the idea of what's a personal attack or is or isn't appropriate is highly subjective. Often one person will be sensitive in a way that somebody else is not. To make matters worse, public accusations of bad posting behaviour often spiral and turn into stronger attacks on both sides. The mods don't necessarily know that a post is upsetting somebody, and need to balance complaints against allowing posters freedom (it is not fun to post on a forum full of "police").

In my experience the best way to handle problems is to privately report a post to a mod, then for the mod to delete the post, inform the poster, and let the poster continue to have a voice, maybe rewording the post or maybe just forgetting about the topic.

If you use the report a post option or send a PM somebody will look at it. I don't think we have gotten any of those lately for this section.

[someone123]

I honestly don't know what the "cutoff" should be discussion of publicly known local Halifax folks, somebody like Erica Butler being an example. Ideally we should be nice to everybody and focus on issues, not people. However it is perfectly valid to question the arguments or opinions of public figures. And 100% valid to question something like the voting record of a city councillor, for example (not suggesting any particular councillor is good or bad; I don't really follow HRM council enough to know). That's just healthy democratic public debate.

I do know it can be a little different in a small city where things can feel more personal. If somebody rants about Xi Jinping or Donald Trump on here those people will never even know about it. But at the other end the standard is different for somebody who chooses to remain out of the public eye.

I am open to suggestions about reducing what kind of discussion focused on people is allowed but the rule has to be applied uniformly, not selectively enforced against popular people while unpopular ones get a different treatment.

[PortaPetee]

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[someone123]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

It has been named numerous times by numerous commenters over the years...but when you call out the toxic behaviour and bullying, you end up accused of being the bully. It is very frustrating and that's why I walked away a couple of years ago.

I am not accusing you of being a bully. What is a good objective rule that can be applied to give discussion a better focus?

I think posters should be able to talk about public issues, e.g. a news article. And express whether they agree or disagree with somebody else's opinion.

I also think it's reasonable to say that it's better to steer clear of overly negative/personal stuff that is directed at a public figure of whatever scale, whether or not they post here.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks for weighing in, someone123. It's good perspective. I personally am thankful for all the work done by all the mods, as I realize it's typically thankless work and the mod is often considered the bad guy no matter what, even though they are just trying to keep the board reasonable for everybody.

I think it's a tough job to understand, as the level of sensitivity varies quite a bit just from forum to forum - for example the federal politics thread on the Canada forum continually allows posts that are quite confrontational, yet it appears that most posters there find it completely acceptable - the level of attack on that forum would be considered wa-a-a-a-ay over the top here, for example.

I agree that if members find a post offensive in any way they should use the tools available to notify mods, and then perhaps mods can have a better understanding at the regional level of tolerance (i.e. in the Halifax forums), and take it from there.

Thanks for everything.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think it's a tough job to understand, as the level of sensitivity varies quite a bit just from forum to forum - for example the federal politics thread on the Canada forum continually allows posts that are quite confrontational, yet it appears that most posters there find it completely acceptable - the level of attack on that forum would be considered wa-a-a-a-ay over the top here, for example.

I really don't want the Halifax section to end up like the Canada section and definitely not like the general SSP Current Events where it's just a bunch of aimless high-octane political crap. There are a million online venues for people who are interested in that. I don't think it's an accident that the more general the section on SSP, the lower the quality of debate.

To me the constructive focus on here is urban development and planning and issues that affect those areas.

I do think there's a wider context that goes beyond this thread. Discussion is a little stale lately in the whole forum, and we are in a pandemic, so there is less positive news and personal connection (long ago, many SSP members actually met in person) and more anxiety. If possible I'd like to grow more positive content rather than focus on negative stuff and what to ban, but like I said I am also open to suggestions, particularly in the form of universally applicable objective rules that keep discussion a bit more positive. The biggest improvement that could happen in this section I think is just more construction updates or focused planning discussions (e.g. Cogswell). But so much is on hold right now.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not accusing you of being a bully. What is a good objective rule that can be applied to give discussion a better focus?

I think posters should be able to talk about public issues, e.g. a news article. And express whether they agree or disagree with somebody else's opinion.

I also think it's reasonable to say that it's better to steer clear of overly negative/personal stuff that is directed at a public figure of whatever scale, whether or not they post here.

I fully agree. It is interesting to note that I cannot recall any serious disagreements between myself and @someone123 over the years here, even though we differ in our opinions on certain topics.

It is instructive to note the largely unfiltered venom that has gotten unleashed online in recent years towards Council members like Streatch, Mosher, Walker, Whitman, Adams and a few others while those representing the other philosophy that shall not be named get either a free pass or near-universal praise. Combined with the discussion earlier in this thread it suggests a curious double standard.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I really don't want the Halifax section to end up like the Canada section and definitely not like the general SSP Current Events where it's just a bunch of aimless high-octane political crap. There are a million online venues for people who are interested in that. I don't think it's an accident that the more general the section on SSP, the lower the quality of debate.

To me the constructive focus on here is urban development and planning and issues that affect those areas.

I do think there's a wider context that goes beyond this thread. Discussion is a little stale lately in the whole forum, and we are in a pandemic, so there is less positive news and personal connection (long ago, many SSP members actually met in person) and more anxiety. If possible I'd like to grow more positive content rather than focus on negative stuff and what to ban, but like I said I am also open to suggestions, particularly in the form of universally applicable objective rules that keep discussion a bit more positive. The biggest improvement that could happen in this section I think is just more construction updates or focused planning discussions (e.g. Cogswell). But so much is on hold right now.

I appreciate that the Halifax section is held to a higher standard than the Canada section. The level of discussion here is so much more constructive, and interesting - and you're right that we need to keep it that way.

Truly what brought me here is interest in all the new developments in Halifax, it's a good place to read information that one would have to search for and would likely never find, and I enjoy everyone's perspectives on it all. But even more-so I enjoy the overall urban planning and development aspects, and on a more personal level, how that ties into the historical evolution of Halifax.

You are absolutely correct in that the pandemic is framing much of what is happening at an online level these days. Many people (myself included) are frustrated by the situation that it has brought about, and are just doing our best to survive amidst all of the range of ideas out there. I am hopeful that once we get through it, a more sunny outlook will return to the forum.

FWIW, I think the best way forward is for all of us to try our best to be "contributors". Before hitting the submit reply button, maybe we can ask ourselves if we are contributing to the discussion, or just airing our negative thoughts and frustrations... just a suggestion.

[PortaPetee]

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[Undreamt]

Perhaps this is a bit of a strange moment for a new user to jump into the conversation.

If you don't mind, I'd like to aim a bit for the middle-ground here.

There are some pretty vocal individuals fighting for more bike lanes whom are very confrontational and nasty. They have an air of ignorance and are quite unwilling to compromise. They usually tend to tie it into the political as well.

I understand that hearing these people, and having to deal with these bike lanes that are seeming overpriced and underused is frustrating; and the negative attitudes toward them is completely valid.

I personally do believe that bike lanes could benefit the city. I think that having a safe option would be awesome.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Undreamt

Perhaps this is a bit of a strange moment for a new user to jump into the conversation.

If you don't mind, I'd like to aim a bit for the middle-ground here.

There are some pretty vocal individuals fighting for more bike lanes whom are very confrontational and nasty. They have an air of ignorance and are quite unwilling to compromise. They usually tend to tie it into the political as well.

I understand that hearing these people, and having to deal with these bike lanes that are seeming overpriced and underused is frustrating; and the negative attitudes toward them is completely valid.

I personally do believe that bike lanes could benefit the city. I think that having a safe option would be awesome.

Excellent post. One can only hope that it does not get labelled as "toxic".

[atbw]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

To be honest, I have tired of the divisiveness that has attacked our society - you read more right vs left, millennial vs boomer, bicycle vs car, etc. etc. than anything else these days... and not enough meeting in the middle.

Maybe I should just read and not comment, or just find a more productive way to use my time...

I’ve mostly stopped posting here. I made a few attempts to back up my side of arguments with data, which is generally ignored. Meeting in the middle generally requires both sides to want to take action. It doesn’t work so well when it’s a “we should change how we do things because there’s a better way” vs. “no we shouldn’t, nobody will like that.”

I appreciate the contributions of members who document all the work going on in Halifax, and the interesting history and discussions, but this forum is exhausting and I can see I’m not alone.

[Summerville]

I wasn't planning to contribute to this string, as it had moved down the line.

But I'd like to mention that I do regret getting worked up over the banter and posts. My apologies to OldDartmouthMark for dragging you into this.

But I find contributing to this Forum exhausting as well, when some views tend to be more to an extreme and remain unwilling to consider alternate views.

I should mention that I do actually agree that Halifax is not ready to close down streets for cyclists or pedestrians as has happened in New York for example. We don't have a crowded subway where a trip to work could be a death sentence. Cycling in the city is pretty good right now considering that most cars remain in the driveway.

But the tone of this string from the beginning pushed me away from saying anything on point. I don't want to be the extremist on this Forum.

I will try to remain a reader at this point as I would rather keep my blood pressure lower.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I should mention that I do actually agree that Halifax is not ready to close down streets for cyclists or pedestrians as has happened in New York for example. We don't have a crowded subway where a trip to work could be a death sentence. Cycling in the city is pretty good right now considering that most cars remain in the driveway.

I agree.

[j.graham]

I've been doing a decent amount of cycling during the pandemic and this has definitely been the most stress-free cycling I've done in the city, I agree that there probably isn't a need for temporary bike lanes. I could see the case for sidewalks though. Walking along Spring Garden is quite tight, especially as some of the businesses have people waiting outside to get in.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I wasn't planning to contribute to this string, as it had moved down the line.

But I'd like to mention that I do regret getting worked up over the banter and posts. My apologies to OldDartmouthMark for dragging you into this.

But I find contributing to this Forum exhausting as well, when some views tend to be more to an extreme and remain unwilling to consider alternate views.

I should mention that I do actually agree that Halifax is not ready to close down streets for cyclists or pedestrians as has happened in New York for example. We don't have a crowded subway where a trip to work could be a death sentence. Cycling in the city is pretty good right now considering that most cars remain in the driveway.

But the tone of this string from the beginning pushed me away from saying anything on point. I don't want to be the extremist on this Forum.

I will try to remain a reader at this point as I would rather keep my blood pressure lower.

Hey, no need to apologize to me, but I appreciate your sentiment. I was legitimately part of the problem.

Your comments were a good heads-up that at least some of us need to think a bit more before we post. It's easy on a forum to just type whatever is in your head at the moment, right or wrong, but at least for me it's easy to forget sometimes that real people are on the other side reading what we post. So what we sometimes think is just some generic abstraction that we are throwing out there, it can have an actual effect on people reading it.

I know I can say that I have personally become a little upset or stressed out over some things that I've read or some exchanges that I've had. Often I didn't realize it at the time, but later on I found myself thinking about it and having some level of emotional response to the posts. During these times, I have often considered leaving the board entirely, or just pulling back and limiting my participation. I would ask myself: "I am just doing this for fun, but this is not fun. Why am I doing this?".

Time and time again I continue to come back and participate, mainly due to the fact that there are good people here who continue to post good and interesting information. And sometimes I feel the need to contribute something that I think others may find interesting. I do feel the connection to other members, and always try to remember that I'm talking to real people who I feel typically have good reasons to feel the way they do, even if it's different from me.

So, my focus will be to try to contribute to the conversation, which isn't necessarily agreeing to everything posted, but to respond respectfully and intelligently. I don't hold any illusions of being perfect, as I'm sure I will slip into being 'human' from time to time, but I feel if we all try a little harder we can elevate the level of conversation to being one where people enjoy coming here, without any of the attached stress (or at least minimize the stress... lol).

Honestly, none of this is worth affecting your feelings of health and well-being over. I hope we can all try to improve things here.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Agreed. I was a daily participant here a couple years ago, but the constant toxicity, squabbling and personal attacks on other participants made me lose interest. The ugly right-wing propaganda doesn't help either. Complaints about the behaviours were ignored and deleted. So I left.

I used to be more active here but mostly keep to the Canada section now. The personal attacks were a major part of that shift. Among other things, I was casually and baselessly accused of cheating my way through grad school, by someone else who doesn't post often anymore - though some others who are still regular posters have also been weirdly, directly antagonistic towards me, and I got pretty tired of that after a while. I'm not holding a grudge, but I have limited free time and prefer not to fill it with negativity.

I do want to thank OldDartmouthMark for standing up for me a number of times, but he really shouldn't have needed to. For what it's worth, things seem to have gotten a bit better over the last couple years (or maybe I just don't notice it since I don't check this site as often)

If people (on all sides) could resist being snarky I think the quality of discussion would improve a lot.