[Halifax] 22nd Commerce Square | 85 & 85 M | 24 & 20 fl | On Hold

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Certainly Thiel was well aware of both the scope of the Nova Centre development and the commitment of the three levels of government to it long before announcing plans for 22 Commerce Square.

Maybe they announced the 22 Commerce project when they did to get their foot in the door. Scare off other potential office projects who would have built after the Nova Centre was complete.

Starting a line up and putting themselves at the front of the line for any future office needs lol.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I don't think that's a fair assessment. The city and province first called for proposals from developers in March 2008 and announced the selection of Rank in February 2009. The province gave its first technical briefing on the project in October of 2010, making clear its position that the Nova Centre was an important regional economic driver. At the time the projected completion date for the project was 2013.

Certainly Thiel was well aware of both the scope of the Nova Centre development and the commitment of the three levels of government to it long before announcing plans for 22 Commerce Square.

I meant construction, not initial planning, which we were never sure was going to happen at all due to the hysterical opposition to the project.

In any case, I am certain that Thiel's waiting to see what happens with the market for office space, hence the delay.

Whether he had hoped to scoop the current demand out from under the Nova Centre, I guess only he can tell us.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Certainly Thiel was well aware of both the scope of the Nova Centre development and the commitment of the three levels of government to it long before announcing plans for 22 Commerce Square.

Yes but he wasn't aware, nor should he have expected the Province, and the City to designate the area under special planning zone under Provincial statements of interest which allowed them to proceed without going through approval and permitting processes that everyone else must go through. Like continuous Burnside expansion or putting the highest height limits on government owned lands downtown, it's another example of government - and those that make the rules - directly competing with the private sector. Thiel has invested a lot of private money in the city and he should have a reasonable expectation to fair treatment.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Yes but he wasn't aware, nor should he have expected the Province, and the City to designate the area under special planning zone under Provincial statements of interest which allowed them to proceed without going through approval and permitting processes that everyone else must go through. Like continuous Burnside expansion or putting the highest height limits on government owned lands downtown, it's another example of government - and those that make the rules - directly competing with the private sector. Thiel has invested a lot of private money in the city and he should have a reasonable expectation to fair treatment.

Joe Ramia was required to have 10 consultations with the public throughout the province and then redesign the Nova Centre. It should also be noted that only part of the Nova Centre will be government funded and the funding won't begin until it is complete. Joe Ramia has had to find private investors and mortgages in order to proceed with construction. This was the government's intention; to put the financial liability upon a private developer.

If anything, building the Nova Centre has been more of a bureaucratic run-around than special treatment. I really wonder if Thiel would be happy getting such "special treatment"

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Yes but he wasn't aware, nor should he have expected the Province, and the City to designate the area under special planning zone under Provincial statements of interest which allowed them to proceed without going through approval and permitting processes that everyone else must go through. Like continuous Burnside expansion or putting the highest height limits on government owned lands downtown, it's another example of government - and those that make the rules - directly competing with the private sector. Thiel has invested a lot of private money in the city and he should have a reasonable expectation to fair treatment.

Life is not fair, and govt makes the rules, so they can make rules that allow them to not have to follow the rules that apply to everyone else.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Yes but he wasn't aware, nor should he have expected the Province, and the City to designate the area under special planning zone under Provincial statements of interest which allowed them to proceed without going through approval and permitting processes that everyone else must go through. Like continuous Burnside expansion or putting the highest height limits on government owned lands downtown, it's another example of government - and those that make the rules - directly competing with the private sector. Thiel has invested a lot of private money in the city and he should have a reasonable expectation to fair treatment.

This is untrue. The project went through the full permitting and approval process as required by law. the Exception was used, to allow them to construct the below grade portions of the building, prior to final approvals. when they hit the argyle street level, they stopped going higher for 2-3 weeks until the final permits came in.

As mentioned, due to the public consultations the building was basically redesigned, in some pretty significant ways, and it takes time to build documentation sets for permits.

Halifax lacks a grading bylaw. Without this, the giant 4 square block hole would have sat empty for a year, untouched.

Did they get some special Consideration - Sure, but they also redesigned based on public feedback.

[Keith P.]

Did I hear something today that this project is active at City Hall again?

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Did I hear something today that this project is active at City Hall again?

Its been approved, city hall should be out of it unless there is a Substantial Change..

[TheGreenBastard]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

Its been approved, city hall should be out of it unless there is a Substantial Change..

Any updates on this at all?

If it was approved over a year ago what could be the hold up?

edit: I looked into it, and it appears the developer left NS due to Joe Ramia poaching BMO from them, and NS did nothing but help Ramia fast-track NC construction to beat TD Centre and 22nd commerce completion.

What a shame, that's a loss to the city and province.

"As for 22nd Commerce Square, the Thiel Group is focused primarily on leasing its TD Centre property. Next steps on the properties comprising 22nd Commerce Square will be made in 2016."

I'm guessing this is a dead plan now :/

[IanWatson]

Yeah, office vacancies are the highest they've been in 20-or-so years, and are only going to get worse when the Nova Centre comes online. I suspect that any office project that is not already under construction is dead.

[Drybrain]

Yeah. The city isn't likely to see another office tower for a long time.

Honestly, I sort of loathed the way this project treated the registered heritage properties around it, so I'm not particularly bothered. One day something else will come along, or an updated version of this, and maybe it will treat those properties better.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yeah. The city isn't likely to see another office tower for a long time.

Honestly, I sort of loathed the way this project treated the registered heritage properties around it, so I'm not particularly bothered. One day something else will come along, or an updated version of this, and maybe it will treat those properties better.

I have to agree with this. Hopefully its next iteration will be better than that proposal was.

[counterfactual]

I actually didn't mind this proposal, thought the cantilever design was interesting/different. Could have been iconic.

But if simply the loss of TD as an anchor has killed it, must have been on a shoestring.

On the lighter side, happy that Bluenose, an institution, stays put!

[portapetey]

I also rather liked it - even the original accordion - it was bold.

I wish it was going forward, but can't see it happening.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

But if simply the loss of TD as an anchor has killed it, must have been on a shoestring.

The lost tenant was BMO. And that hardly points to it being on a shoestring. Only a really bad business-person would build a new office building in a market with 15%+ vacancy with no tenant lined up.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

The lost tenant was BMO. And that hardly points to it being on a shoestring. Only a really bad business-person would build a new office building in a market with 15%+ vacancy with no tenant lined up.

With such a high vacancy with offices and you're building an office tower, you have to expect.... high vacancy in your office tower. If you lose your shirt because you lose one tenant, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Probably should have considered converting more of this proposal to residential.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

With such a high vacancy with offices and you're building an office tower, you have to expect.... high vacancy in your office tower.

Uhhh yeah. The problem is that an office development is a multi-year project. Vacancy rates probably weren't near as high when they first had the idea for the tower. Then vacancy rates skyrocketed so they decided to abandon the project and wait for the next office cycle. Losing your anchor tenant is a big deal, and probably affects your ability to get financing.

Office development is highly cyclical, and once the conditions are right for the next upswing it's a big race among developers to be the one to get to market first and absorb the demand. These guys are not the only developers right now who lost the race and are abandoning office projects or changing them to residential.

In this Halifax office cycle the race was short-circuited by the Nova Centre getting rammed through the approvals process by government.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Uhhh yeah. The problem is that an office development is a multi-year project. Vacancy rates probably weren't near as high when they first had the idea for the tower. Then vacancy rates skyrocketed so they decided to abandon the project and wait for the next office cycle. Losing your anchor tenant is a big deal, and probably affects your ability to get financing.

Office development is highly cyclical, and once the conditions are right for the next upswing it's a big race among developers to be the one to get to market first and absorb the demand. These guys are not the only developers right now who lost the race and are abandoning office projects or changing them to residential.

In this Halifax office cycle the race was short-circuited by the Nova Centre getting rammed through the approvals process by government.

there is an abundance of new office space, and when companies move, they take less space.

Even as 22 commerce square was being announced, they were signing new leases, so i think they will be waiting on this for a while.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Uhhh yeah. The problem is that an office development is a multi-year project. Vacancy rates probably weren't near as high when they first had the idea for the tower. Then vacancy rates skyrocketed so they decided to abandon the project and wait for the next office cycle. Losing your anchor tenant is a big deal, and probably affects your ability to get financing.

Office development is highly cyclical, and once the conditions are right for the next upswing it's a big race among developers to be the one to get to market first and absorb the demand. These guys are not the only developers right now who lost the race and are abandoning office projects or changing them to residential.

In this Halifax office cycle the race was short-circuited by the Nova Centre getting rammed through the approvals process by government.

The office market is cyclical? Uhhh, yeah.

I'm sure the Thiels know that, but they're happy to play the "blame everything on Joe Ramia" game. If they want to wait for a better cycle, fine, then say so, don't whine about other developers.

[kph06]

Could this not still happen but as hotel/residential/retail only and cut the commercial part out of it? I've noticed the permit applications signs look like they've been refreshed on the building (one is bolted into the nice RBC building granite - that made me cringe).

Compass Realty still has this one their website (albeit with a 2018 opening date) - they recently hired Kourosh Rad, who has been at the helm of a lot of recent public engagements and other development proposals for WSP - most notably handling Danny Chedrawe's Ben's Bakery and Midtown North Proposals. Maybe this is a sign of further proposals from Compass?