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  #521  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This discussion makes me think that Canada and Canadians as a whole are totally unprepared psychologically for the re-emergence and (self re)casting of francophones as a poor, downtrodden, historically mistreated minority.

I am already hearing quite a few rumblings about this. And not just from the ROC provinces. From Quebec too.

Watch out.
What reaction do Quebeckers expect from people in the ROC if they play the marginalized card?

When Paul Desmarais lunches with Louis Vachon, I don't think they're going to a soup kitchen.
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  #522  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
What reaction do Quebeckers expect from people in the ROC if they play the marginalized card?

When Paul Desmarais lunches with Louis Vachon, I don't think they're going to a soup kitchen.
Hopefully a more mature reaction than in the past.
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  #523  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
What reaction do Quebeckers expect from people in the ROC if they play the marginalized card?

When Paul Desmarais lunches with Louis Vachon, I don't think they're going to a soup kitchen.
Neither do Douglas Cardinal or Buffy Ste Marie I gather.

Or Oprah Winfrey or Barack Obama in the US for that matter.

You're probably missing the point of all this.
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  #524  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 9:59 PM
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Yes, francophones are years behind on their PR.

.
I think it's that the PR focus shifted starting in the late 70s. (Prior to that the image was definitely that of the poor little guy.)

And that the world of the 2020s represents an opportunity for perhaps another major shift.
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  #525  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 9:59 PM
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You're probably missing the point of all this.
It'd be easier if you simply told us instead of playing the old ominous runaround game.
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  #526  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:02 PM
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It'd be easier if you simply told us instead of playing the old ominous runaround game.
How come everyone seems to get it except you?

Anyway, to deal with one loose end from hipster's post: grievance politics more than ever these days aren't just about material wealth.
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  #527  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:11 PM
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How come everyone seems to get it except you?
What exactly am I supposed to be getting? As hipster pointed out, playing the marginalized card is going to get a big womp-womp in the ROC. Being pedantic probably won't improve things.

I'll watch out, though, whatever that's supposed to mean.
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  #528  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:12 PM
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Neither do Douglas Cardinal or Buffy Ste Marie I gather.

Or Oprah Winfrey or Barack Obama in the US for that matter.

You're probably missing the point of all this.
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Hopefully a more mature reaction than in the past.
I'm not seeing what we [Anglos] can put on the table any more.

Quebec is in charge of its own affairs. It sets immigration policies, it runs its own pension plan, it even has a ministry of international relations (foreign affairs). It has cultivated a diverse economic base with French-speaking Quebecois occupying every rung of power all the way up to the C-suite and commanding and controlling all of this economy out of Montreal.

You're a nation state in all but name. Just set up a central bank and a military and you're good to go.

We can't even do anything about the erosion of French in the ROC. It's not up to Ottawa to tell millions of Fortnite players to chat with each other in French or to tell INSEAD that they should run their Executive MBA in French or set up a French language medical journal of the calibre of the New England Journal of Medicine or The Lancet.
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  #529  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I'm not seeing what we [Anglos] can put on the table any more.

Quebec is in charge of its own affairs. It sets immigration policies, it runs its own pension plan, it even has a ministry of international relations (foreign affairs). It has cultivated a diverse economic base with French-speaking Quebecois occupying every rung of power all the way up to the C-suite and commanding and controlling all of this economy out of Montreal.

You're a nation state in all but name. Just set up a central bank and a military and you're good to go.

We can't even do anything about the erosion of French in the ROC. It's not up to Ottawa to tell millions of Fortnite players to chat with each other in French or to tell INSEAD that they should run their Executive MBA in French or set up a French language medical journal of the calibre of the New England Journal of Medicine or The Lancet.
Ideas:

1. Make Northeast Ontario a bilingual province (or, for the time being, a devolved region).

2. Make Ottawa (Ontario-part) a bilingual territory.

3. Devolve economic immigration, a la Quebec, to Northeast Ontario, Ottawa (the territory), and New Brunswick. Require that they each set up both English and French language streams for economic immigration. Require that they gradually raise the French migrant intake with the goal of eventually reaching parity, or close to it, in terms of English & French streams.

4. In Anglo-Canada, ensure (or work toward ensuring) that every family has the choice to send their child to a French immersion school. Encourage Anglo provinces to aim to ensure that every student in Anglo Canada graduates high school with intermediate French language skills.

5. Show Radio-Canada programming (much better) on CBC, with English subtitles.

6. Encourage Quebec to increase its economic immigration quota, including by helping foot the bill for services that economic immigrants typically use upon arriving as newcomers.

7. Set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
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  #530  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:32 PM
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I don't think much will change at the national institutional level for Quebec but there's stuff that could change in other provinces and there are potential "soft" changes.

Francophone issues have been put in a special "language issues" category but French Canadian could become more of a "race" with race type norms and taboos being ported over. If that happened I don't think Anglophones would feel as comfortable weighing in on French Canadian issues.

I sometimes see issues relating to Francophones in Canada that are shoehorned into a model that doesn't quite fit. It's not as clear as many suppose that Acadians are closer to "white guys who like to speak French" than they are to Métis for example, and cutoffs applied between these groups are arbitrary.
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  #531  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:50 PM
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I don't think much will change at the national institutional level for Quebec but there's stuff that could change in other provinces and there are potential "soft" changes.

Francophone issues have been put in a special "language issues" category but French Canadian could become more of a "race" with race type norms and taboos being ported over. If that happened I don't think Anglophones would feel as comfortable weighing in on French Canadian issues.

I sometimes see issues relating to Francophones in Canada that are shoehorned into a model that doesn't quite fit. It's not as clear as many suppose that Acadians are closer to "white guys who like to speak French" than they are to Métis for example, and cutoffs applied between these groups are arbitrary.
The people I went to school with in the ‘70s who were then called French-Canadians (to the extent we thought about such things, which was virtually never) would mostly be called Métis today. No one would have used the term Métis back then except for country people with the traditional clothes and customs.
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  #532  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I'm not seeing what we [Anglos] can put on the table any more.

Quebec is in charge of its own affairs. It sets immigration policies, it runs its own pension plan, it even has a ministry of international relations (foreign affairs). It has cultivated a diverse economic base with French-speaking Quebecois occupying every rung of power all the way up to the C-suite and commanding and controlling all of this economy out of Montreal.

You're a nation state in all but name. Just set up a central bank and a military and you're good to go.

We can't even do anything about the erosion of French in the ROC. It's not up to Ottawa to tell millions of Fortnite players to chat with each other in French or to tell INSEAD that they should run their Executive MBA in French or set up a French language medical journal of the calibre of the New England Journal of Medicine or The Lancet.

I realize all that, but I don't think that in 2021 it's up to Majority Group X to tell Minority Group Y what their demands or needs are, or even define what is "enough".

BTW I am not trying to be an ass. Just checking in with the parameters of today's world.

I didn't start the fire.
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  #533  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 4:27 AM
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Shifting this discussion to here...

Quebec’s anglophone minority is a target, once again – and no one is coming to the rescue
Andrew Coyne
May 19, 2021

"In his last piece before retirement, the veteran Montreal Gazette columnist Don Macpherson warned his English-speaking readers they were on their own.

Simply put, “we don’t count,” he told them. No political party, federal or provincial, is going to defend their rights. Not when they are outnumbered seven to one by the province’s French-speakers, and not when that majority has convinced itself that it is the endangered minority in the province.

Hence the great quiet that has descended upon Quebec in the wake of Bill 96, the Coalition Avenir Québec government’s draconian new language law, whose aim, whatever Premier François Legault’s dissembling (“it’s nothing against the English Quebeckers”), is to further harass and marginalize the province’s anglophone minority – in the name, as always, of assuring the “survival” of its francophone majority, or in the now-obligatory usage, the Quebec nation.

The bill would extend the restrictions on English contained in Bill 101 – the province’s existing assertion of franco-supremacy – to businesses with as few as 25 employees. It would not ban English altogether on commercial signs, as some hard-liners had hoped, but it restores the requirement of “marked predominance” for French, a phrase familiar from previous instalments of the language wars.

It would remove the right to offer bilingual services from some municipalities, cap enrolment at English-speaking CEGEP schools, force recent immigrants to communicate with the province exclusively in French and empower citizens to snitch to the government on businesses whose French-language service they found wanting.

Once, this sort of thing might have provoked at least a murmur of opposition here and there, on the principle that majorities should not be quite so open in their disdain for the minorities in their midst. Not any more. In part, this is a matter of precedent – what might once have been the occasion for outrage has long been sanctioned by custom. But in part it is the crude calculations of politics: There are no votes in anglo rights.

...

Having earlier invoked the clause with regard to Bill 21, and gotten away with it – a Quebec Superior Court judge last month found the legislation, which imposes an effective hiring bar on observant religious minorities across much of the public sector, was a gross violation of religious rights, only to wave it through helplessly – the Legault government seems likely to get away with it again. As before, it is not only the federal Charter of Rights and Freedoms it has thus neutered, but also Quebec’s own charter. Both are increasingly dead letters in the province."


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...and-no-one-is/
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  #534  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 7:12 AM
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Shifting this discussion to here...

Quebec’s anglophone minority is a target, once again – and no one is coming to the rescue
Andrew Coyne
May 19, 2021

...
For every action there is reaction, so for sure, special dispensation must be given to certain aspects of Anglophone culture within Quebec, it's only fair.
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  #535  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 1:51 PM
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As usual, the best take in English about this topic is from Konrad Yakabuski.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...-is-an-act-of/
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  #536  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 2:13 PM
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As usual, the best take in English about this topic is from Konrad Yakabuski.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...-is-an-act-of/
Interesting commentary.

As I have said before, I am not particularly concerned by LeGeault's proposed legislation. It seems fairly moderate and temperate.

The RoC should just resign itself to the concept that Quebec is the master of it's own destiny within the broader Canadian federation (so long as it lasts) and will not tolerate any outside interference.

We will just have to accept that Quebec will do only the minimum necessary to support minority language rights as defined by the federal constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms, and that (hopefully) common sense will temper the jackbooted tendencies of the sovereigntist zealots.

Canadian federalism will likely only survive in the long term if it learns from the Swiss federal model.
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  #537  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 2:42 PM
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Interesting commentary.

As I have said before, I am not particularly concerned by LeGeault's proposed legislation. It seems fairly moderate and temperate.

The RoC should just resign itself to the concept that Quebec is the master of it's own destiny within the broader Canadian federation (so long as it lasts) and will not tolerate any outside interference.

We will just have to accept that Quebec will do only the minimum necessary to support minority language rights as defined by the federal constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms, and that (hopefully) common sense will temper the jackbooted tendencies of the sovereigntist zealots.

Canadian federalism will likely only survive in the long term if it learns from the Swiss federal model.
And Switzerland ain't got no separatist movements!
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  #538  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Interesting commentary.

As I have said before, I am not particularly concerned by LeGeault's proposed legislation. It seems fairly moderate and temperate.

The RoC should just resign itself to the concept that Quebec is the master of it's own destiny within the broader Canadian federation (so long as it lasts) and will not tolerate any outside interference.

We will just have to accept that Quebec will do only the minimum necessary to support minority language rights as defined by the federal constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms, and that (hopefully) common sense will temper the jackbooted tendencies of the sovereigntist zealots.

Canadian federalism will likely only survive in the long term if it learns from the Swiss federal model.
I haven't read the Yakabuski column yet but just responding to your post... I think it's generally understood that provinces have a lot of latitude within the context of Canadian federalism. It's just unfortunate in my view that Quebec uses its latitude in a way that repeatedly has a negative impact on minorities, whether linguistic or ethnic. At this point you get the feeling that it's just for show since no one can really say that Quebecois culture is under any meaningful sort of threat from within, whether from Anglos or non-secular (i.e. Muslim) groups. From here, it looks like playing to the crowd for political gain at the expense of certain people whose rights are marginalized as a result.

In some respects it's their prerogative and as someone who doesn't and never will live there, it doesn't affect me any on a personal level. So I could just shrug and say 'whatever'... but I would probably feel better about the whole country if we (in the broadest sense) took Charter rights a bit more seriously, for what that's worth.
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  #539  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Interesting commentary.

As I have said before, I am not particularly concerned by LeGeault's proposed legislation. It seems fairly moderate and temperate.

The RoC should just resign itself to the concept that Quebec is the master of it's own destiny within the broader Canadian federation (so long as it lasts) and will not tolerate any outside interference.

We will just have to accept that Quebec will do only the minimum necessary to support minority language rights as defined by the federal constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms, and that (hopefully) common sense will temper the jackbooted tendencies of the sovereigntist zealots.

Canadian federalism will likely only survive in the long term if it learns from the Swiss federal model.
I tend to agree. Switzerland >>> Belgium in this regard.

But Anglos are not the enemy. They are not a fifth column. It was tiresome being implicitly depicted as such, by politicians seeking the nationalist vote (much of whom live in "les regions" where there is nary an anglophone, and almost none that are unilingual).
Just as Canada benefits greatly from the French fact, so too does Quebec from the English minority.
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  #540  
Old Posted May 20, 2021, 2:52 PM
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Canadian federalism will likely only survive in the long term if it learns from the Swiss federal model.
So...national referenda on changes Quebec wants to make?

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
In some respects it's their prerogative and as someone who doesn't and never will live there, it doesn't affect me any on a personal level. So I could just shrug and say 'whatever'... but I would probably feel better about the whole country if we (in the broadest sense) took Charter rights a bit more seriously, for what that's worth.
It doesn't directly affect me, either, but it lays precedence for other provinces to invoke similar measures. I'll glance slowly towards the future of NB.
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