Downtown parking - thoughts

[Coldrsx]

Applying the parking brakes

Making things tougher for downtown commuters is crucial to creating a better downtown experience for all, urban experts believe

By: Kelly Taylor

Conventional wisdom, at least in Winnipeg, holds that the key to a successful downtown is making it easy for suburbanites to drive downtown and park wherever they wish.

Conventional wisdom, it appears, is wrong.

A look at cities suggests abundant parking is not a benefit, but rather a bane, to a successful downtown, which experts say is vital to the economic well-being of all parts of a city.

"There are very few things more important to a city’s and a suburb’s success than a vibrant downtown," says Brent Toderian, a city planning consultant and president of the Council for Canadian Urbanism. "That’s true whether an individual ever comes downtown or not."

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...461331603.html

[s211]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Making things tougher for downtown commuters is crucial to creating a better downtown experience for all, urban experts believe

I personally prefer a system that uses realistic carrots instead of ideological sticks. Vancouver's ideological sticks (think more of a bat with nails in it, versus a riding crop) have created a nasty "us versus them" environment that has hollowed out the middle of the road, so to speak.

Let the flamewar ensue...

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by s211

I personally prefer a system that uses realistic carrots instead of ideological sticks. Vancouver's ideological sticks (think more of a bat with nails in it, versus a riding crop) have created a nasty "us versus them" environment that has hollowed out the middle of the road, so to speak.

Let the flamewar ensue...

agreed...

and it’s inevitably those who will be inconvenienced the least who are in favour of the biggest sticks.

[adam-machiavelli]

I'd argue with the cost of parking, time taken commuting, time taken looking for parking, and vehicle wear and tear, it already is very hard for commuters to access downtowns. High quality public transit will actually make it easier, quicker, and cheaper to commute downtown.

[Coldrsx]

Keep the thoughts/feedback coming all, it is my next focus for research and reporting.

[s211]

Originally Posted by kcantor

agreed...

and it’s inevitably those who will be inconvenienced the least who are in favour of the biggest sticks.

Indeed, and for complete disclosure, my forms of transportation from most-used to least-used are:

1) walk
2) bike
3) car
4) transit

[DKaz]

It'll be a matter of supply and demand in the end. With the low price of real estate and drivers willing to pay the exorbitant parking fees, I don't see the surface lots and parking structures going away anytime soon. I'd love to see several surface lots consolidated into a single parking structure.

Kelowna's built/expanded a couple of multi level parking structures recently and in no way has it taken away from the vibrancy of their downtown. Vancouver at one point was littered with surface lots and parking structures yet Robson and Granville was the place to be evenings and weekends. I wouldn't blame the parking lots downtown for killng downtown Edmonton's scene, but rather the automobile dependent planning of this city in general. I've taken my kids to hockey practices/games at several arenas so far and only once yesterday at Crestwood Arena was I able to walk to Starbucks to grab a drink and snack before the game.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

I'd argue with the cost of parking, time taken commuting, time taken looking for parking, and vehicle wear and tear, it already is very hard for commuters to access downtowns. High quality public transit will actually make it easier, quicker, and cheaper to commute downtown.

too bad Edmonton isn't making high quality transit choices, choices that should make it easier, quicker and cheaper to get downtown.... instead, slow trains, frequent stops, little to no grade separation... although the newly released plans for the NW seem to be starting to get it.... STARTING TO. So sorry Millwoods and WEM who have been waiting for 30+ years, you are being sold rubbish.

[YEGman]

As someone who has worked in the downtown core since 1981 and who more than willingly pays for parking as part of our firm's large-scale lease of several office tower floors, I am disturbed that any more lack of attention to vehicles be paid than already is exemplified by City Council and its Administration.

Quite frankly other than my daily commute from Twin Brooks and the fact that when I attend Oiler games I can use my parking, I have little or no desire to go downtown especially given the repeated obstacles thrown up by the City by placing traffic lights at multiple intersections on 109 and 99 Streets and the upcoming nonsense on Saskatchewan Drive.

The chances of me riding a bus and/or taking the LRT or riding a bike to go downtown are zero and it is about time that the City recognized that the vast majority of Edmontonians feel the same way as I do.

[Mikemike]

Ignore that lede and the article is on point. It's not that making it easy to park is the problem itself, or that making it harder to park can be isolated as a good thing...

But an excess of space dedicated to parking is certainly a Bad Thing, and filling those spaces with other uses is a Good Thing. large volumes of motor traffic attempting to squeeze through limited roadspace is a Bad Thing, and attempting to accommodate those cars with street "improvements" to enhance car access is a Bad Thing - at least when all the innocuous accommodations have already been made generations ago.

I'm generally not in favour of "Sticks", but other than a direct parking tax the vast majority of measures I've seen proposed to "discourage" driving and parking downtown aren't sticks at all, they're simply carrot removal.

Eliminate/Reduce Parking minimums on new development? Carrot Removal.

Re-allocate some street space to people on bikes? Carrot removal.

Re-allocate some street parking to bike parking corrals, temporary patios, sidewalk extensions?

Carrot Removal.



We're so far from car drivers being anything other than the favoured son in terms of rules and infrastructure on the ground that it's not even funny...when drivers regularly have to arrive a full cycle early and press a button to be allowed to cross a street, when an arterial-equivalent multi-use path gets designed priority when intersecting even the smallest of streets, when you can leave 200 of your junk on the street no questions asked if it's not a car.....

then we can talk.

[B.ike]

It's a matter of preconceptions that just keeps being passed on.
Finding parking Downtown Edmonton is quite a simple affair. Yes its daunting for someone who only visits once a year, but there are so many options and availability.

Street parking wise:

Calgary is basically same as Edmonton, I'm not from there, but have no issues finding parking downtown.

Vancouver you have to drive around a few times.

Montreal....oh boy...took awhile but found something during my time there.

Toronto...didn't bother.

Granted, Edmonton's E-park is a mess. I probably stop and tell people to stop putting money into those machines during non-event nights every week. And they say the sign says parking rate in effect...and I gotta say, this machine says otherwise. What kind of information is that?? Terrible.

Lastly...what people are used to around here on the prairies is they drive up as close as possible to their destinations. Just go observe at Superstore, Walmart or Costco and the endless looping of cars to find a close spot. Or even better - the car that tailgates a person to a spot that is close and just waits the next 3 minutes for them to unload and back out. All the while the back spots are open and available.

So when you tell people you have to walk a block or two AND you have to pay for parking to go downtown...good luck.

You can imagine the reaction when I tell people there is free on-street parking within a 5-8 minute walk of the arena. They look at me like I'm crazy and would rather pay the $20 fee and then of course curse at the 30 minute wait time to leave the parkade at the end of the event and say they're never doing downtown again.

TLDR: somee in Edmonton don't like walking more than 1 minute to their destinations. hence transit is terrible for most and downtown is crap.

[mintzilla]

^to be fair I don’t think a lot of albertans are physically capable of walking for more than a few minutes at a time without getting out of breath.

[240glt]

Good places within cities that are difficult to get to are usually so because there is some attraction or reason for people to want to go there. The congestion is organic. Edmonton's downtown is not that currently, and all fake congestion will do is drive more people away.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Edmonton's downtown is not that currently, and all fake congestion will do is drive more people away.

interesting take. I don't disagree.

After living DT for almost ten years.... Not having to play parking roulette anymore when i bring home a second vehicle... or have my parents have to pay for parking to visit their grand daughter....Having a house on a suburban street is beyond fantastic.

The war on the car made downtown a less enjoyable place to live in recent years....i don't think there are enough 20 something hipsters on bikes in this city to keep making life difficult for the 90 some percent of us car commuters and not see an impact. i see a continued loss of anything resembling destination retail, replaced with even more coffee stores, revolving door of failed businesses catering to the 20 something hyper sensitive to all causes crowed who don't have the discretionary spending available after their 20 hour live/work balance lifestyle to spend on $20 mini jar of ethically sourced pickles, and Instagramy restaurants that are only opened evenings.

[adam-machiavelli]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

interesting take. I don't disagree.

After living DT for almost ten years.... Not having to play parking roulette anymore when i bring home a second vehicle... or have my parents have to pay for parking to visit their grand daughter....Having a house on a suburban street is beyond fantastic.

The war on the car made downtown a less enjoyable place to live in recent years....i don't think there are enough 20 something hipsters on bikes in this city to keep making life difficult for the 90 some percent of us car commuters and not see an impact. i see a continued loss of anything resembling destination retail, replaced with even more coffee stores, revolving door of failed businesses catering to the 20 something hyper sensitive to all causes crowed who don't have the discretionary spending available after their 20 hour live/work balance lifestyle to spend on $20 mini jar of ethically sourced pickles, and Instagramy restaurants that are only opened evenings.

lol you are one of my favourite satirists.

[Mikemike]

I'm curious what he imagines are the city's actions so far in this so-called war on the car.

The only car-restricting action that could be seen as arbitrary or aggressive is closing 104 ave at the end of hockey games. Everything else is construction or justifiable exclusive transit lanes or a few bike lanes mostly on less busy roads.

Maybe the majority of what's making driving and parking downtown is other people driving and parking downtown.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

I'm curious what he imagines are the city's actions so far in this so-called war on the car.

The only car-restricting action that could be seen as arbitrary or aggressive is closing 104 ave at the end of hockey games. Everything else is construction or justifiable exclusive transit lanes or a few bike lanes mostly on less busy roads.

Maybe the majority of what's making driving and parking downtown is other people driving and parking downtown.

did you read the title of the article that started this thread?

[SHOFEAR]

since you asked..

Bike lanes
Surface LRT through major intersections
that disaster of picnic benches and other stupid shit on jasper ave last year through oliver
Bike Lanes
delaying terwillegar or doing a cheap enhancement...gotta spend that money on trains instead.
Bike lanes
those X crosswalks.
bike lanes and everything done on 100 ave.

Transit infrastructure should be like what school board you want your taxes going to. check either vehicle, mass transit or bike.

[YEGman]

In my business we actually have to meet with people face-to-face and the number one issue that comes up when they have to come to our office is PARKING.

We offer parking vouchers (one of my clients actually coordinates their Holt Renfrew shopping excursions with meeting with me since we do not restrict the parking to when they do business with us - some important clients actually use us to park for OILER games....) and that alleviates it for many but even then there is the perception that coming downtown is a form of torture.

A total lack of understanding of this pervades the current Administration and their pie-in-the-sky "plans."

[240glt]

^ don't really have an issue with parking down here. I've got my own spot in the parkade and we also have a spot at the Brownlee. Don't usually come downtown after hours and when we do we Uber it. My main issue with how the city is handling construction in the core is that the city seems to have taken an almost vindictive attitude towards drivers in allowing lanes to be shut down during peak times, seemingly endless cycle of ripping up the same stretch of road every six months due to lack of coordination and efficiency between city departments and the city's failure to adapt for vehicle traffic when implementing changes like the bike lanes. And even the bike lanes are poorly done when you see how they've been implemented in other cities. In other major cities major road work is often completed off hours and they don't just let companies shut down major roads for long stretches at a time. Requirements for OSCAM permits are not enforced here and the city seems to let pretty much anything slide if it inconveniences drivers.

Edmonton can shun vehicles downtown at it's own peril. Downtown isn't that much of a destination for most and the idea that choking up the roads leading to it will somehow improve it is the kind of twisted logic that only an overzealous militant urbanite with little grasp of practical reality could come up with. In the end the city doesn't listen to its citizens in the first place so I expect downtown to just continue to be an inconvenient place to go and nothing will really change either way.