Building Boom Set to Vault Toronto Past Chicago in Skyscraper Rankings

[dc_denizen]

It is an interesting phenomenon that while the record levels of multifamily buildout in Australia and Canada is mostly towers with balconies , in the US it’s low and midrise apartments

To see what I mean compare say Hillsboro Oregon’s infill with what you see in some random suburb of Vancouver

What causes the record level of multifamily additions in these countries to take a different form?

[isaidso]

^^ Urban planning policies. Australian/Canadian planning is almost exclusively TOD (Transit Oriented Development). That means high density nodes scattered around a metro that can support mass transit. A lot of US planning still caters to the automobile.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Toronto has long had a lot more 20+ story buildings than Chicago, so this is just another jump in its continuing evolution.

But far more interesting to me than the penis measuring is the fact that North America's 2nd and 3rd largest skylines are in the interior, on the shores of the great lakes, and not on the over-hyped coasts.

There's gotta be something in the water.

The Great Lakes are so massive though they're de facto coasts. Fresh water is an incalculably huge asset for both too.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

IF Toronto has all of its proposals built (not counting what is already under construction), which is a dubious proposition, I would still put Chicago as having the more impressive skyline for a number of contextual reasons:

A—greater height
B—greater visual concentration
C—better architecture
D—more variation in architecture
E—significantly more skyscrapers underneath this article’s arbitrary boundary - for most people, 150 meters is WAY above the boundary line for what they’d consider a skyscraper... official metrices by cloistered academics be damned - for which points A-D also apply
F—and the fact that, well, Toronto won’t be far enough ahead of Chicago at all at that point on the simple, arbitrary, and totally unjustified metric used by this article (12 towers, or 8% of Chicago’s existing + under construction + proposed tower stock over 150 meters... far less than the difference between NYC and Chicago) for Toronto to say that it unambiguously has a bigger skyline (AKA because it is ambiguous, context matters).

Conclusion: at best Toronto can say it is tied with Chicago.

Also: Toronto’s archetypal tower in the park style is an urban typology of which I am very much not a fan. Skyscrapers often DO NOT equal high quality urbanism. Yay for Toronto, the Miami of Canada.

Towers in the park? In 1980 a large proportion of Toronto's towers were like that but you can't really say that today. Perhaps it's been a while since you were in Toronto? In your defence, even people who live in Toronto have trouble keeping up with the pace of change.

I agree with you somewhat about proposals. One shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch but after following Toronto high-rise construction the last 15 years it's more dubious to dismiss it. Toronto proposals get canceled/changed just like everywhere else but something else always seems to get built in its place.

Lastly, it's not Toronto saying its skyline will be bigger (although it might soon) but the CTBUH. They're quite reputable. That said, one can dissect this a million ways. The bigger story is Toronto's rapid ascension. Below Chicago, ahead of Chicago, tied with Chicago? By the end of the decade few people will be asking that question. Toronto's on rocket boosters and it's likely only in year 14 of a half century long build out. It's going to be a vastly different place when the dust settles.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Chicago has essentially no towers of 150m+ outside its core (maybe there's one or two, but basically none). Toronto has quite a few, almost certainly more than 10% of the overall total. Humber Bay, Mississauga, North York, Yonge-Eglinton all have such towers. Humber Bay, alone, has far more towers of such height that all of Chicagoland excluding the core.

Just to set the record straight, Toronto has 8 150m+ towers built outside the downtown core so 8/70 or 11.4% of them. That leaves 62/70 or 88.6% of them downtown. Toronto has 9 150m+ towers under construction outside the downtown so 9/38. When these building top out 17/108 150m+ buildings will be outside of downtown or 15.7%. 91/108 or 84.3% of them will be downtown.


150m+ buildings completed outside downtown Toronto

1. E Condos (Midtown)
2. Absolute World South (Mississauga)
3. Lago (Etobicoke)
4. Quantum North (Midtown)
5. Absolute World North (Mississauga)
6. Pinnacle Grand Park II (Mississauga)
7. Beyond the Sea (Etobicoke)
8. Westlake Village One (Etobicoke)


150m+ buildings under construction outside downtown Toronto

1. Eau de Soleil I (Etobicoke)
2. M City I (Mississauga)
3. M City II (Mississauga)
4. 2221 Yonge (Midtown)
5. Water's Edge (Etobicoke)
6. Eau de Soleil Water Tower (Etobicoke)
7. Vita on the Lake (Etobicoke)
8. Edge Towers I (Mississauga)
9. E2 at E Place (Midtown)

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on proving that Chicago has more of these 150m+ buildings. Everyone knows that. The take away from the data and articles like the one by Bloomberg is recognizing where things are headed. It may take some time but Toronto will be #2. Even downtown Toronto by itself will be #2. Toronto would have to get hit by a meteor for it not to happen.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on proving that Chicago has more of these 150m+ buildings. Everyone knows that.

Because that's literally the opposite premise of the article and what you're arguing. The article is inaccurate. That's my only point.

Are you just arguing that the gap between Chicago and Toronto is shrinking? That sounds reasonable. But it's highly unlikely that Toronto will have a comparable skyline as Chicago anytime soon. It would take many decades of disparate growth. Chicago has many more buildings, and many taller buildings.

In terms of skyline-changers, Chicago has the bigger skyline-changer of the two right now with Vista. And it isn't close. After that, both have a ton of decent sized glassy towers going up, almost certainly more in Toronto, especially as you expand your height criteria. But it would probably take like 40 years of disparate growth to completely close the gap. I don't think Toronto will be #2 in North America, at least not in any of our lifetimes.

[chicubs111]

The Chicago skyline is by far superior to Toronto...by afar and at street level...the layout , the river running through the city...it makes Chicago difficult to beat in that category regardless whenever at some point if they pass Chicago in buildings over 500ft (or whatever the exact number is) .. the architecture is vast superior in Chicago so should take pride in that because thats what really matters at the end of the day.

[isaidso]

^^ Those are deeply entrenched views held by lots of people who haven't been paying much attention. Perhaps you should plan a trip to Toronto around 2025-2026. I think you'll be in for a shock. I do think Chicago will still have better architecture by that point but that gap is disappearing as well.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Because that's literally the opposite premise of the article and what you're arguing. The article is inaccurate. That's my only point.

Are you just arguing that the gap between Chicago and Toronto is shrinking? That sounds reasonable. But it's highly unlikely that Toronto will have a comparable skyline as Chicago anytime soon. It would take many decades of disparate growth. Chicago has many more buildings, and many taller buildings.

In terms of skyline-changers, Chicago has the bigger skyline-changer of the two right now with Vista. And it isn't close. After that, both have a ton of decent sized glassy towers going up, almost certainly more in Toronto, especially as you expand your height criteria. But it would probably take like 40 years of disparate growth to completely close the gap. I don't think Toronto will be #2 in North America, at least not in any of our lifetimes.

Quantitatively, I see Toronto's skyline pulling even in 5-6 years (2025-2026) then pulling ahead of it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

It is an interesting phenomenon that while the record levels of multifamily buildout in Australia and Canada is mostly towers with balconies , in the US it’s low and midrise apartments

To see what I mean compare say Hillsboro Oregon’s infill with what you see in some random suburb of Vancouver

What causes the record level of multifamily additions in these countries to take a different form?

Toronto is building a ton of lowrise, midrise, and highrises and may lead North America in all 3 categories.
head over to urbantoronto.com to get a better idea of what's currently being built in the city

[dc_denizen]

Actually in terms of total multifamily additions Toronto stands out but not extraordinarily so.

New York , Toronto and Dallas lead North America in multifamily additions , as I recall , followed by places like Houston , dc, Seattle, Denver etc

So for example while Houston is building few high rise towers

They are permitting 20000 multifamily units per year

US multifamily completions are at record levels and most are located in or near urban areas . It’s all good

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Actually in terms of total multifamily additions Toronto stands out but not extraordinarily so.

New York , Toronto and Dallas lead North America in multifamily additions , as I recall , followed by places like Houston , dc, Seattle, Denver etc

So for example while Houston is building few high rise towers

They are permitting 20000 multifamily units per year

US multifamily completions are at record levels and most are located in or near urban areas . It’s all good

Toronto mutli-res construction (what you you call multi-family) was just over 71,000 units in 2019.

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2019/05...d-high-q1-2019

Houston appears to be at 16,000

https://www.curbed.com/2019/11/5/209...for-rent-condo

New York City appears to be coming in just under 14,000 (was 19,000 in 2018)

https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-E...year-in-a-row/

Dallas will be the top U.S. performer at 24,000 units in 2020 according to this article:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...n-and-leasing/

So Toronto is almost triple that level.

That's neither here nor there. Lets just keep the facts straight.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Quantitatively, I see Toronto's skyline pulling even in 5-6 years (2025-2026) then pulling ahead of it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

You're on safe ground w/your post.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Toronto mutli-res construction (what you you call multi-family) was just over 71,000 units in 2019.

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2019/05...d-high-q1-2019

Houston appears to be at 16,000

https://www.curbed.com/2019/11/5/209...for-rent-condo

New York City appears to be coming in just under 14,000 (was 19,000 in 2018)

https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-E...year-in-a-row/

Dallas will be the top U.S. performer at 24,000 units in 2020 according to this article:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...n-and-leasing/

So Toronto is almost triple that level.

That's neither here nor there. Lets just keep the facts straight.

You’re conflating under construction with completions. Most articles are about completions. You cited a construction number in Toronto and completion numbers for us cities

2018: New York city 60000 apartment units under construction

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

2016: Dallas with 50000 apartment units under construction

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...wntown-8448469

2018: Denver 26000 apartments under construction

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.den...ment-boom/amp/

To put this in perspective Total USA 2019 multi family under construction in May 2019 was 620,000 units ,fifth highest ever. Annual completions are around half of this

http://cbre.vo.llnwd.net/grgservices...5eedbc5fdeb982

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Toronto mutli-res construction (what you you call multi-family) was just over 71,000 units in 2019.

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2019/05...d-high-q1-2019

Houston appears to be at 16,000

https://www.curbed.com/2019/11/5/209...for-rent-condo

New York City appears to be coming in just under 14,000 (was 19,000 in 2018)

https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-E...year-in-a-row/

Dallas will be the top U.S. performer at 24,000 units in 2020 according to this article:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...n-and-leasing/

So Toronto is almost triple that level.

That's neither here nor there. Lets just keep the facts straight.

Just to be clear, there is nothing remotely factual in the above post. It's complete nonsense. Actually, this entire thread is basically an orgy of boosterish nonsense. The title alone is nonsense.

I'm too lazy to post U.S. construction counts, but they can be accessed at the Census New Construction page and the Canadian numbers for Toronto have already been posted. Nothing is remotely close to the claims above. Toronto does not build more housing than NYC or Dallas, or probably Houston most years. And LA is in the same general range.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

You're on safe ground w/your post.

I covered all my bases.

[Innsertnamehere]

The city of Toronto is due for 30,000 multi family completions this year, more in the suburbs.

This is above typical, but still huge. Toronto has been adding 20-25k new units a year for about a decade now.

Toronto’s planning approvals phase is probably longer than Chicago, but regardless of how long it is, Toronto has way more under construction and short of some economic disaster or Chicago entering a similarly great building boom, Toronto should pass it sometime this decade.

Chicago will likely remain “taller” for a long while though as I don’t see Toronto building stuff over 350m any time soon.

[Gresto]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Quantitatively, I see Toronto's skyline pulling even in 5-6 years (2025-2026) then pulling ahead of it.

Yeah, no question, unless there's a sudden boom in Chicago. Someone correct me if I'm writing out of my ass, but it's my impression that Toronto already has substantially more "highrises" (namely, buildings of 12+ stories) than Chicago. I thought that was a fact.
On the other hand, Chicago has nicer skyscraper architecture, as mentioned, including some art deco gems (though no comparison to Manhattan's stock), and has, on the whole, taller tall buildings than TO. Because of economics, I guess, few developers here are willing to build much higher than 300m (1000 ft). Toronto's skyscraper architecture is not bad. We have a number of very nice examples of the International style in the financial core. The problem is the sea of homogeneous glass condos that have risen since the turn of the century. Even some of those are attractive in their own right (e.g. ICE Towers), but one looks at something like the ShittyPlace complex and shakes one's head at how dismal and bereft of creativity it is.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The city of Toronto is due for 30,000 multi family completions this year, more in the suburbs.

This is above typical, but still huge. Toronto has been adding 20-25k new units a year for about a decade now.

Toronto’s planning approvals phase is probably longer than Chicago, but regardless of how long it is, Toronto has way more under construction and short of some economic disaster or Chicago entering a similarly great building boom, Toronto should pass it sometime this decade.

Chicago will likely remain “taller” for a long while though as I don’t see Toronto building stuff over 350m any time soon.

Interesting, here are the top us multifamily completions in 2018.

New York Metro – 32,300 units completed
Dallas/Ft. Worth – 20,500 units completed
Los Angeles/Southern California – 20,000 units completed
Seattle – 14,400 units completed
Washington, D.C. – 13,600 units completed
Denver – 11,700 units completed
Boston – 9,700 units completed
Miami/South Florida – 9,500 units completed
San Francisco Bay Area – 9,300 units completed
Chicago – 8,900 units completed
Orlando – 7,700 units completed
Austin – 7,400 units completed
Charlotte – 7,000 units completed
Atlanta – 6,900 units completed
San Antonio – 6,800 units completed
Phoenix – 6,400 units completed
Minneapolis – 6,300 units completed
Tampa – 6,100 units completed
Nashville – 5,900 units completed
Portland – 4,900 units completed

[dc_denizen]

Meanwhile 2019 rolling annual through q3 can be viewed below:

http://cbre.vo.llnwd.net/grgservices...d94bccf210c5b9

New York maintaining 30000 completions per year, Dallas around 20000, and other boom cities in the mid teens (dc, Denver, Austin, Los Angeles)

Chicago is around 10000 per year, so one third of Toronto’s (very high) level this year

Ergo, the difference in multifamily activity is a lot lower than northern light and other posters asserted. The delta can be attributed to global safe haven demand which is mostly absent in the us, and hugely important in Canada .also , there is the residual but declining preference for single family home development in the USA

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Ergo, the difference in multifamily activity is a lot lower than northern light and other posters asserted. The delta can be attributed to global safe haven demand which is mostly absent in the us, and hugely important in Canada .also , there is the residual but declining preference for single family home development in the USA

Source? You attribute 20,000 extra units in Toronto a year to offshore investors?

And the US is immune from this? You think that Brickell Avenue is middle class Miamians looking for an urban lifestyle and the ability to walk to Miami’s exploding number of downtown jobs?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Chicago is around 10000 per year, so one third of Toronto’s (very high) level this year

Ergo, the difference in multifamily activity is a lot lower than northern light and other posters asserted.

You're also comparing metropolitan stats (CSA even?) to just the City of Toronto. The majority of suburban construction is multi-family as well, and there's a plenty of it.