HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 9:18 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 42,014
Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Kevin O'Leary was born and bred in Montreal.
Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 1:09 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.
ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:20 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 42,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.
They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 3:27 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.
Anglophones who have a pretty good fluency in French (though not necessarily unaccented) and "fit in" seamlessly with francophone Quebec, are also considered "Québécois" by most everyone (ie the French term, with accents aigus on the Es). People like Brian Mulroney, Thomas Mulcair, Corey Hart, the McGarrigle sisters, Jasey-Jay Anderson, Mike Bossy, Pat Burns, Nanette Workman, Judy Richards, Oliver Jones, Dickie Moore, Lawrence Cannon, Marlene Jennings, etc. come to mind.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 3:33 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 42,014
MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 4:12 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.
And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 4:37 AM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.
And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 5:09 AM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.
I hope the peninsular elites remember the little guys when they meet in the Caraquet Tim Hortons for roll up the rim days.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 11:40 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........
Good point though they don't complain that New BrunswickER as an identity does not intuititively evoke for many people someone who is a francophone.

They don't think of the New BrunswickER identity much at all.

The people in Macadam and Hartland can have it all for themselves. (Though NB Acadians harbour no ill-will towards their province.)
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 1:06 PM
Andy6's Avatar
Andy6 Andy6 is offline
Starring as himself
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Toronto Yorkville
Posts: 9,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.
What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.
__________________
crispy crunchy light and snappy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 1:19 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,867
This is because "Quebecois" is arguably an ethnicity in the older manner, while "Manitoban" is not. Of course, the older manner is unfashionable and on its way out (e.g. Zlatan is Swedish now, whereas in 1910 he would not have been), but we all know that these things are not precisely flat or equivalent, even if we must treat them that way in an official sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:23 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.
Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:25 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,708
Quote:
letters that don't even exist in the English language
The e accent aigu is not on my keyboard (without having to insert a special character), and you know this, but think you are so clever pointing this out.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:26 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.
Assimilation yes?

Hmmm, didn't the British try this out on the French speaking habitants? I for one think it is a good thing they failed.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:29 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.
Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:35 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.
I gave a whole bunch of names of people are considered part of the Québécois "us" who are (non-assimilated) anglophones. I can list off many more if required.

I believe almost all of them are (declared or assumed to be) federalists and some of them are even critical of certain Québécois groupthink tenets.

But they're still considered part of the "us" (and often belovedly so) so it's legitimate to ask why it's worked for them and not for others, and whether or not self-exclusion plays a role in at least some cases.

It can't all be on those evil xenophobic Québécois francophones who just don't want to accept anglos (or anyone different) as part of their gang.

Such things are never that one-sided. As an eminent professor specialized in cultural differences (not doxing you BTW - you've said this many times on here) you of all people should be more aware of this than any of us.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:38 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?
You should ask him if that makes him fearful of or uneasy in the society where he lives?

(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:44 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? .
Trudeau and Charest got that (PET way more than Charest) due to the nastiness of the political game, fuelled by a perception - right or wrong - that they were working against what most regarded as the interests of the "nation".

For the record I've never heard anyone do anything like that to Mulcair or Mulroney, who are both also federalists from Quebec, in addition to being more audibly anglophone (Mulcair) or born of two anglophone parents (Mulroney).

Which should in theory cost them more "purity" points than Charest and Trudeau. Well, if that many people actually cared about such things.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:47 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)
Self identification is a personal choice. We all want to feel "part of the tribe." With you, you have chosen to be Quebecois, which required at least a bit of assimilation into the culture.

Molson on the other hand apparently resents, or at least does not see the need for assimilation to be considered a Quebecois. I would say that he loves and appreciates Quebec society, but wants to retain his anglophone identity. The fact that if he still lived in Quebec he would be forced to make a choice he finds an abomination.

This is my take on the matter.
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2020, 2:58 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Self identification is a personal choice. We all want to feel "part of the tribe." With you, you have chosen to be Quebecois, which required at least a bit of assimilation into the culture.

Molson on the other hand apparently resents, or at least does not see the need for assimilation to be considered a Quebecois. I would say that he loves and appreciates Quebec society, but wants to retain his anglophone identity. The fact that if he still lived in Quebec he would be forced to make a choice he finds an abomination.

This is my take on the matter.
Of course, people are free to choose whatever level of integration they're comfortable with, ranging from zero to 100%.

My point is simply that there is no shortage of examples of people who'd be considered "Québécois" while clearly remaining anglophones, as opposed to being totally assimilated to the francophone group in order to attain that status.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:40 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.