HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 11:02 AM
nwalbert nwalbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Moncton should go big for the reasons that both MonctonRad and NBNYer have listed. Getting that 10K threshold opens up opportunities for a plethora of more events. Events like The Brier require there to be at least 8/10K capacity. Music concert tours often set 10K as a minimum capacity. Etc., etc. If you go small (7/8K) you're voluntarily closing yourself off to events that otherwise would consider Moncton in a heartbeat.
Heehee. This is like saying I NEED my Porsche cause its really fast and handles great. No, I NEED a car to get to work. I wanted a Porsche and could afford it.

There needs to be an actual business case to see if Moncton can afford what they want. Does the potential of 1-2 extra events per year generate enough revenue to justify the cost?

It sounds like what you guys really want is Harbour Station in Saint John. Harbour Station has I think 7100 seats today with the ability to add another 2000 or so by completing the West End. At the moment there are luxury boxes installed there but the capability to expand to around 9000 exists. Moncton probably needs something similar so they can grow is there is real demand.

I have never been in the Coliseum but saw some pictures from the interior. I can see why folks want it replaced so badly. Unfortunately the Feds wont contribute a cent as long as Harper is in power. The city may be wise to try and time things when they anticipate a new government taking over, though that could be a number of years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 11:17 AM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 22,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwalbert View Post
There needs to be an actual business case to see if Moncton can afford what they want. Does the potential of 1-2 extra events per year generate enough revenue to justify the cost?
If you build it, they will come!

Seriously, this will always be a bit of a mugs game. The Nova Centre in Halifax is being built partly on faith. Who knows what the convention business will be like in 20 years time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwalbert View Post
It sounds like what you guys really want is Harbour Station in Saint John. Harbour Station has I think 7100 seats today with the ability to add another 2000 or so by completing the West End. At the moment there are luxury boxes installed there but the capability to expand to around 9000 exists. Moncton probably needs something similar so they can grow is there is real demand.
Harbour Station is a quality facility, no question about it. I think though, it would be cheaper and less disruptive just to go ahead and add the extra 2-3,000 seats right from the get go than at some nebulous point in the future. The Moncton events centre is also planned as a linchpin for future downtown development. It might give developers extra confidence to proceed with their plans if they knew exactly what they were getting in terms of the capabilities of the events centre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwalbert View Post
I have never been in the Coliseum but saw some pictures from the interior. I can see why folks want it replaced so badly.
The coliseum has served it's purpose, but is now well beyond it's best before date. The old lady needs a rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwalbert View Post
Unfortunately the Feds wont contribute a cent as long as Harper is in power. The city may be wise to try and time things when they anticipate a new government taking over, though that could be a number of years
I tend to agree with you. The Harper government has made it loud and clear that it won't be funding hockey rinks. There are components to the facility however that might be candidates for federal funding, such as a transit hub or the possibility of a small convention facility. Also, the time frame for putting shovels in the ground might make the events centre an appealing target for election promises. We likely won't see anything happening until 2016, and I believe the next federal election is in 2015. Coincidence?
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 5:19 PM
OUIR@random OUIR@random is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Nouveau-Brunswick
Posts: 707
I don't know why people are blaming Harper or the Conservatives, this has nothing to do with them. Money will not just appear because Harper is ousted. North Americans will have to learn to live below our means but within our needs, but most people around here don't, so how can we expect our government to do the same...
In any event, time to spend, spend, spend is over, I don't think any new government will ever go back to the spending mode of the past. At all government levels, things have changed forever.

Last edited by OUIR@random; Mar 20, 2013 at 6:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 5:36 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 22,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by OUIR@random View Post
I don't know why people are blaming Harper or the Conservatives, this has nothing to do with them. Money will not just appear because Harper is ousted. ..
It's not so much that we are blaming Harper specifically, it's just that when the last stimulus program was being run a couple of years back, many communities had their hands out for new rinks and the program became oversubscribed. Even though municipalities like Gatineau and Moncton had fulfilled all the requirements for funding, the program was terminated and they were left high and dry.

At the same time, cities like Edmonton were looking for federal funding for their new NHL arenas. There was a big hulaballoo over funding for "professional" sports teams and the feds decided to cut their losses by simply stating that infrastructure funding was not intended for hockey rinks in general.

This of course is equivalent to a carpenter who thinks that all his carpentry needs can be solved with only a hammer. There are rinks, and then there are events centres which are far more than just a rink and which can serve as major sources of civic renewal and also as a major economic multiplier for their communities.

This is not a black and white issue, but unfortunately the current federal government treats it as such. It is possible that another federal administration at some point in the future might be a little more nuanced in its approach....
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 10:39 PM
RyeJay RyeJay is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by OUIR@random View Post
I don't know why people are blaming Harper or the Conservatives, this has nothing to do with them. Money will not just appear because Harper is ousted. North Americans will have to learn to live below our means but within our needs, but most people around here don't, so how can we expect our government to do the same...
In any event, time to spend, spend, spend is over, I don't think any new government will ever go back to the spending mode of the past. At all government levels, things have changed forever.
Overall, I agree with you. I have a point of difference, however, since I believe the Conservatives are to blame for on what they've spent their stimulus. Infrastructure to modernise Canada's cities would have been a better investment for creating economic growth than a series of hockey rinks, or even 'events' and 'convention' centres.

In Halifax, for instance, an investment in light rail transit and bus expansion would have been a smarter business decision than a convention centre that may or may not be successful in the near future (I agree with MonctonRad's skepticism about the Nova Centre). Public transit is absolutely needed now -- and in the short-term it creates an impressive number of jobs; and in the long-term it opens up development possibilities along the LRT line (transit oriented development), which often implies more high-rise buildings (and hence, even more jobs).

Increasingly, young people are not wanting/not able to purchase cars. Cities must improve public transit.

Government spending is an essential part to economic growth, since public spending deals with the success of the general consumer (which supports capitalism, broadly) while private companies focus on their own immediate profts even at the sacrifice of the consumer's finances, so government spending does need to continue. We simply have to prioritise our spending on smart growth -- growth that doesn't further add to our numerous forms of debt -- growth that will actually produce a financial return on its investment.

Any municipality that currently isn't seriously committing to inward urbanism is going to be struggling in subsequent decades. Even oil-rich Alberta is having debt issues from too much urban sprawl and rural growth -- all of which must be subsidised.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 3:40 PM
JasonL-Moncton JasonL-Moncton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
and once again we miss out on a major tour...KISS going to Saint John, Halifax, and Saint Johns...but hey, we're getting Hanson!

__________________
Jason
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 11:38 AM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
The Events Center ridiculous saga continues...

Moncton's Events Center project has become a complete travesty. This travesty is being fueled by the egoistic untruths of Downtown Moncton Centre-ville Inc. Everyone, over the past several years, has been brainwashed into assuming that the ONLY possible place to build the Events Center was Highfield Square, nobody ever pointed out, until today, that HS is the worst possible place to invest huge amounts of money. The ultimate question is: Should our first priority be to worry about building any project simply because we want to patch-up and replace vacant Highfield Square? Or do we want to find the ideal location for the maximum benefit of the Sports and Entertainment Center itself? Both of these possibilities are mutually exclusive. An ideal location must have on-site parking for 3,500 vehicles and offer in years to come ample space for expansion. Read a truthful analysis at website www.totot.ca
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:00 PM
kwajo's Avatar
kwajo kwajo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Uptown, Saint John
Posts: 1,684
Lower Coverdale?! Are you serious? One of the major selling points of this whole plan is to help you downtown and make Moncton not so drearily sprawl-dependant, and you're suggesting the events centre be put kilometres away from downtown on the other side of the river?

Not to mention that website has a list of "problems" with the Highfield Sq site that is so full of uneducated logical fallacies, I don't even know where to begin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:05 PM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
Highfield Square is the WORST possible place to build an Events Center. It is too small. An ideal location must have on-site parking for 3,500 vehicles, and have enough space for future expansion. Read this well made analysis. www.totot.ca
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:09 PM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
Moncton's population is completely zombied out about the Events Center. And who can blame them? There have been so many untruths written over the years that no one knows what the real facts are. This website has researched the truth, have a look at: www.totot.ca
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:21 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 22,858
I think someone has an agenda here.....

By and large, contributers to this site are urbanists who want to see vibrant and vital downtowns for their cities. This is why the events centre must be built downtown, to serve as a linchpin for future development.

Moncton has too much sprawl now. We need to follow sound planning practices. Building high schools near the Kent County boundary and events centres kilometers away from downtown on the opposite side of the river, (where only 15% of the CMA's population live) just won't cut it......
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:21 PM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
The Events Center doesn’t have to be on Main Street,
Taxpayers need truth-telling from the media but aren’t getting it; all they get is the same old lame story that will never come true. A new location is now available, the land will be owned by City of Moncton and no upfront money is needed. It truly is a signature destination called TROPICAL GARDENS.
Located only 8 km from central downtown Moncton. See it at: www.totot.ca

Downtown will never find investors for such a mega project because anyone managing money knows the facts that you can read here: : http://www.eurasiareview.com/2306201...es-build-oped/

Another ridiculous myth is that a new building downtown will rejuvenate the downtown core. That’s exactly like an old woman buying a new hat thinking that wearing this new hat will turn her into an attractive desirable twenty year old. Unfortunately for her, she will always be an old lady with a new hat. Ask yourself if an aging downtown can regain the blush of youth by adding one new building?

Last edited by JHikka; Apr 3, 2013 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Triple-Post
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:46 PM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
Of primary importance, the new location that is proposed for the new Events Center requires ZERO cash payment to buy the land. This is an immediate saving for the City of $15 million in 2013. This new location can be leased by The City for 25 years, and at the end of the lease, the City holds an exclusive option to buy the land for just $1.00, yes, that’s correct, one dollar. Why couldn’t City of Moncton own a large piece of land outside the city limits, especially if it’s practically for free? The advantages are that this new location has much future expansion possibilities, it is close-by and it offers 3,500 spaces of on-site parking.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 12:54 PM
kwajo's Avatar
kwajo kwajo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Uptown, Saint John
Posts: 1,684
You do realize that the long term costs of placing the event centre that far away from the core, combined with the loss in tax revenue, would outweigh getting land for "free"?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 1:11 PM
Unlearn Relearn Unlearn Relearn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 39
"""that far away from the core""" WOW, last time I looked 8 kilometers was less than 5 miles, do you consider that FAR AWAY? What you seem to deny is simply that the Events Center will not be financed nor built by people on this forum. The people who will finance such a huge project will want to avoid major mistakes like being cramped in a teeny weeny space with no expansion possibility in years to come, and they will not invest one cent of there is not sufficient on-site parking.
Assuming the project costs only $100 million, the monthly payback to the bank for this amount, at the very low interest rate of 6% for 25 years, will be $1 million per month, or $34,000 per day, each day for 25 years. This does not include cost of operating the Center, insurance, employees, electricity and heating, property taxes, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 1:40 PM
RyeJay RyeJay is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlearn Relearn View Post
Highfield Square is the WORST possible place to build an Events Center. It is too small. An ideal location must have on-site parking for 3,500 vehicles, and have enough space for future expansion. Read this well made analysis. www.totot.ca
It's not the site that is too small; it's your thinking that is.

Cities build vertically, dear.

If an events centre is built it will be in the downtown -- not Lower Coverdale. This city has experienced quite enough sprawl (and car dependency). For the long-term prosperity of the city's economy, we must begin committing to inward urbanism.

According to every sustainable urban planning textbook: Your proposal is a total joke.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 1:57 PM
gehrhardt's Avatar
gehrhardt gehrhardt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Salisbury, NB
Posts: 455
Don't feed the troll, guys.

Anyone proposing an events centre 8km from downtown either has an agenda or enjoys the reactions on forums.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 2:18 PM
RyeJay RyeJay is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by gehrhardt View Post
Don't feed the troll, guys.

Anyone proposing an events centre 8km from downtown either has an agenda or enjoys the reactions on forums.
Or suffers from Royal Oaks Syndrome.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 2:49 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 22,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonL-Moncton View Post
and once again we miss out on a major tour...KISS going to Saint John, Halifax, and Saint Johns...but hey, we're getting Hanson!

And I see that Carrie Underwood performed last night in SJ at Harbour Station but skipped performing at the Coliseum.....

The Events Centre need to be built soon, before Moncton's reputation for mid sized indoor concerts really begins to suffer!!
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 2:49 PM
OliverD OliverD is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlearn Relearn View Post
Another ridiculous myth is that a new building downtown will rejuvenate the downtown core. That’s exactly like an old woman buying a new hat thinking that wearing this new hat will turn her into an attractive desirable twenty year old. Unfortunately for her, she will always be an old lady with a new hat. Ask yourself if an aging downtown can regain the blush of youth by adding one new building?
That is a terrible analogy that brilliantly demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:05 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.