Greater Paris

[Minato Ku]

Yes like Harlem but these was never as bad than Harlem.

I said like Harlem because it was the poorest district and it is now very attractive.
If you see the number of construction in Saint Denis.

[look]

Interesting is that, if Paris was merged with three departments around it, it would have 4 major boroughs just as New York:

Ville de Paris - Manhattan
Hauts-de-Seine - Brooklyn
Seine-Saint-Denis - Bronx
Val-de-Marne - Queens

I know I forgot Staten Island, but i's much smaller that other 4 anyway.

[Minato Ku]

I agree it could fit.
The only differance is that Haut de Seine is as rich than city of Paris

GDP per head.
Haut de Seine : 68,000 € ($91,745)
Paris : 74,944 € ($101,114)

Haut de Seine has the highest GDP per job in Europe (Over 120,000 € or $160,000)

[look]

That's why I paired it with Brooklyn, cause I think Brooklyn is the richest borough after Manhattan.

[city dweller]

The Greater Paris I proposed there would have a land area of 1,635 km² (631 sq. miles), which is almost the same size as Greater London (1,579 km²), larger than New York City (785 km²) or the City of Moscow (1,081 km²), but smaller than Tokyo Prefecture (2,187 km²) or the Municipality of Shanghai (6,341 km²). As of now the City of Paris has a land area of only 105 km² (40.4 sq. miles), which is only barely twice the size of the island of Manhattan.

I never knew it was that small in land area. Now I really support this measure. How can Paris be compared to other large cities when it's land area is a fraction of theirs?

Some of those suburbs look as dense or denser than Paris, i.e. this one:


I can't believe it's not considered part of Paris! - that suburb is more urban than pretty much every U.S. city save New York. It makes the suburb I live in look like it's in the middle of the boondocks. Integrate Paris now!

[Minato Ku]

Yes, I am not a fan of Brisavoine's Greater Paris, I agree that it would be better now than now but it is too big for me. It has a lot of suburban area and some rural area
It has 80% the population of Paris urban area in 1,635 km²

The Greater Paris that I propose is only the core (The urban part with high density) of the urban area.
The mine has 67% of the population of the urban area in 728 km²
It is a lot denser

But, now the Greater Paris of Brisavoine include airports and the Évry-Massy-Saclay the "Scientific Valley" of Paris.

[Ardent]

London extends in to urban scrawl in to the home counties, commuter belt and across the south east.

If London used the same metro area calculations as NY which are around six and a half thousand square miles or an area roughly the size of all three yorkshire ridings combined, then not just the home counties but the whole of south east england would have to be taken in to account, giving a population of around 18-20 million. In the London Home counties alone (which are basically the adjoining suburban counties surrounding London) there are betwen 7 and 8 million, and London's Greater Urban Area (continous urban build up beyond London) is around 9.3 million.

[Ardent]

Paris has a Metro Population of 11.1 million.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/cities/france/paris/

The Lack of Urban Sprawl in France

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/sprawl-paris.html

[Minato Ku]

Originally Posted by Ardent

London extends in to urban scrawl in to the home counties, commuter belt and across the south east.

If London used the same metro area calculations as NY which are around six and a half thousand square miles or an area roughly the size of all three yorkshire ridings combined, then not just the home counties but the whole of south east england would have to be taken in to account, giving a population of around 18-20 million. In the London Home counties alone (which are basically the adjoining suburban counties surrounding London) there are betwen 7 and 8 million, and London's Greater Urban Area (continous urban build up beyond London) is around 9.3 million.

With these calculus Paris metro has 16 million inhabitants.

11.1 million inhabitants is for Ile de France region in 1999 (Now over 11.5 million) but Paris metro is not exactly the same than Ile de France, Paris metropolitan area has 12 million inhabitants.

6.7 million inhabitants is the city core of the urban area.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

With these calculus Paris metro has 16 million inhabitants.

11.1 million inhabitants is for Ile de France region in 1999 (Now over 11.5 million) but Paris metro is not exactly the same than Ile de France, Paris metropolitan area has 12 million inhabitants.

6.7 million inhabitants is the city core of the urban area.

The South East England and the home counties are amongst the most densely populated areas in Europe, and Paris may be designed differently to London, but that does not make it any bigger.

As for New York it uses a massive metro area to calculate many of it's population figures and if London and Paris were to use a similar area, I dare say they would be massive metro populations.

in terms of London's metro, it's usuall referered to as the commuter belt, and includes the home counties and parts of the South East, and is around 15/16 million today.

Over a third of the population of England live in and around the London region.

[Minato Ku]

Yes but USA is less dense than France and a lot less than England.

USA the towns around New York was created with the development of New York city.

But in England or France cities like Oxford or Chartres was not created and developed with the development of London or Paris.

I think that Metro area concept should change by countries or we can said that Brussel metro has around 30 million inhabitants.

For my London metro has 14 million inhabitants and Paris metro 12 million inhabitants even with a smaller population than others megapolis, London and Paris are two of four most importants cities on the earth.

Paris or London metro would be the 16th largest economy on the planet. (between Netherlands and Australia)

Show that in this site the most visited cities are London and Paris.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/cities/

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

Yes but USA is less dense than France and a lot less than England.

USA the towns around New York was created with the development of New York city.

But in England or France cities like Oxford or Chartres was not created and developed with the development of London or Paris.

I think that Metro area concept should change by countries or we can said that Brussel metro has around 30 million inhabitants.

For my London metro has 14 million inhabitants and Paris metro 12 million inhabitants even with a smaller population than others megapolis, London and Paris are two of four most importants cities on the earth.

Paris or London metro would be the 16th largest economy on the planet. (between Netherlands and Australia)

Show that in this site the most visited cities are London and Paris.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/cities/

I agree with what you are saying however, should NY's metro include parts of Pensylvannia, do cities such as Newark not have a seperate identity, and is a metro area of such vast proportions really a metro area.

When the new high speed line opens in November of this year, between London and Paris, the two cities will be only two hours and 15 minutes away by train. Two of the greatest cities in the world will almost be forged in to a megacity, with no other two great cities of the world linked by such a short train journey. The future is bright for both cities.

[Minato Ku]

The median income in Paris region



It could be interesting to see the reality.

[mic of orion]

I voted good idea, London works perfectly (well transport is in bit of a bother, lol) but other than that city works like a clockworks.

I think Paris should reform its local government first as it might create loads of problems if all is done in on a whim if you get me,

[GENIUS LOCI]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

This area has 6.718.400 in 728 km²

With this limit, it would be more easy to make comparaison with other cities
because nowaday the city Paris is less populated than Rome or Berlin.

Obviously size counts because Berlin land is something like 880 skm and Rome is 1300 skm

But anyway Paris is very dense

[villelumiere]

Ardent is quite right to point out that, if the US CSA method was used in computing the London or Paris metro population then we would be looking at huge figures. Probably 12 to 14 million for paris and 14 to 16 million for London.

However so what? Does it really matter that the US census figures give NY, Chicago etc vastly inflated figures? It doesn't. What matters is how best to govern Paris.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by villelumiere

14 to 16 million for London.

18 million to be exact.

It's been calculated...

[villelumiere]

Thank you Shiro. 18,000,000 over what area do you know? and has Paris been calculated as well?

[Minato Ku]

Yes it is about 16 million inhabitants.
But we are in Europe, not in USA, it is not exactly the same case the cities between the two continents are very different.

[villelumiere]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

Yes it is about 16 million inhabitants.
But we are in Europe, not in USA, it is not exactly the same case the cities between the two continents are very different.

Thank you.

I quite accept that europe and the US will and should have differences but equally one has to have some limit after which the concept of "metropolitan area" becomes meaningless. EG the NY CSA on which all estimates of NY's size are based is over 30,000 sq. kms. This is as big as Scotland!!! How meaningful is that? I suggest it is almost meaningless.

I stand to be corrected but I believe the INSEE demand 40% commuter threshold for inclusion in the Aire urbain. I believe it it merely 15% for CSAs in America. Clearly the figures using 15% will be vastly inflated and if 15% were used in Paris then vast areas would come within the net giving us as you say 16,000,000 compared for example to Chicago's 9,500,000.

I am not bashing America. They have every right to include low density and low commuter threshold areas if they wish. All I ask is that we acknowledge the fact that this inclusiveness makes comparison meaningless if we use American figures and european ones to compare without explaining the effect of the different approaches.

EG Paris is in reality almost twice as big as chicago. 16 million as against 9.5 million. London is not that far behind NY. 18 million as againat 21.5 million. These realities are not reflected in international comparisons.