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  #221  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
Johnstown 279951 233848 154298

Where is this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown,_Pennsylvania

I believe the MSA is the county though, which doesn't match those population numbers. Maybe the MSA was bigger in the past?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambri...,_Pennsylvania
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  #222  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 11:03 PM
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^ Was definitely bigger in the past. Johnstown area is one of the rustiest of the rusty. It might have encompassed areas outside Cambria County into Somerset and/or Indiana Counties.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
Johnstown 279951 233848 154298

Where is this?
Pennsylvania, Cambria and Somerset counties. Impressive, right? And pay attention on Scranton, Wilkes-Barre and Wheeling-Steubenville. If they kept growing at national average, they would be massive metropolises today.

Scranton-Wilkes, for example, relatively peaked in 1920 or so. They would be over 2 million people today.


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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown,_Pennsylvania

I believe the MSA is the county though, which doesn't match those population numbers. Maybe the MSA was bigger in the past?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambri...,_Pennsylvania
Yes. By the 1950 definition, it was a two-county metro area. As we're talking of 1900, I would guess Cambria county only would be more appropriate, but still, Johnstown would be at 104k. Quite impressive.
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  #224  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Pennsylvania, Cambria and Somerset counties. Impressive, right? And pay attention on Scranton, Wilkes-Barre and Wheeling-Steubenville. If they kept growing at national average, they would be massive metropolises today.

Scranton-Wilkes, for example, relatively peaked in 1920 or so. They would be over 2 million people today.
These are collections of coal and steel towns in river valleys. Pittsburgh is the ultimate example of this typology.


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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Yes. By the 1950 definition, it was a two-county metro area. As we're talking of 1900, I would guess Cambria county only would be more appropriate, but still, Johnstown would be at 104k. Quite impressive.
A two-county metro area here is REALLY stretching it. Most of Somerset County was, and still is, nothing. Somerset is really the only place of any significance there, and it's never been very much... I doubt it ever even had 10k people. Somerset County is mountains and farms.
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  #225  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2021, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
A two-county metro area here is REALLY stretching it. Most of Somerset County was, and still is, nothing. Somerset is really the only place of any significance there, and it's never been very much... I doubt it ever even had 10k people. Somerset County is mountains and farms.
But that's 1950 definition. Cambria County had 209,541 people then, and looking at Wikipedia, I noticed Johnstown is very near the border with Somerset County (81,813 in 1950), both way above today's population. In general, 1950 definitions seem quite strict, so I believe Johnstown metro area would be better represented by the two county definition, and therefore having 290,000 inh.

For 1900, though, definitely it's one county metro area, and therefore, 104,000 inh.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ Does a top 20 exist for US metros in 1900?

Would be interesting to see. I'm guessing it would be dominated by the northeast & midwest with some far flung outposts like san fran & new orleans
The 1910 Census report seems to be when the Census Bureau introduced urban areas. That report had a table of urban areas with their population in 1910 and 1900. I'm pulling the ZIP file now to extract that page.
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Last edited by ChiSoxRox; Jan 26, 2021 at 12:48 AM. Reason: update, 1910
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  #227  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
The 1910 Census report seems to be when the Census Bureau introduced urban areas. That report had a table of urban areas with their population in 1910 and 1900. I'm pulling the ZIP file now to extract that page.
Found this!

https://www.peakbagger.com/pbgeog/histmetropop.aspx
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  #228  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 12:58 AM
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Here's another - more accurate?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...as-decade.html
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  #229  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 1:02 AM
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Here are the pages from the 1910 Census on metro areas, hyperlinked as they are large images:

Page 1 - Methodology

Page 2 - Table

Page 3 - Table end

The list in 1900:

New York....4,607,904
Chicago....1,837,987
Philadelphia....1,623,149
Boston....1,249,504
Pittsburgh....792,968
St. Louis....649,711
Baltimore....577,670
Cincinnati....495,979
San Francisco....473,073
Cleveland....420,020
Buffalo....394,031
Twin Cities....372,009
Milwaukee....324,963
Detroit....318,967
Providence....306,110
Washington....305,684
New Orleans...294,615
Louisville....259,856
Kansas City....228,235

Note that back then, metro areas were not wedded to counties! Rather the methodology is to add up adjacent jurisdictions over a certain density.

By 1910, Los Angeles skyrockets into this list, nearly tripling!
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Last edited by ChiSoxRox; Jan 26, 2021 at 1:13 AM.
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  #230  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
It's an interesting list, but I spot some inconsistencies. In 1950, for example, Pittsburgh was officially defined by the Census Bureau with 4 counties, and 2.21 million inh., and not 1.4 million. In fact, Allegheny County alone was at 1.52 million in 1950.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 2:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post

The list in 1900:

New York....4,607,904
Chicago....1,837,987
Philadelphia....1,623,149
Boston....1,249,504
Pittsburgh....792,968
St. Louis....649,711
Baltimore....577,670
Cincinnati....495,979
San Francisco....473,073
Cleveland....420,020
Buffalo....394,031
Twin Cities....372,009
Milwaukee....324,963
Detroit....318,967
Providence....306,110
Washington....305,684
New Orleans...294,615
Louisville....259,856
Kansas City....228,235

Note that back then, metro areas were not wedded to counties! Rather the methodology is to add up adjacent jurisdictions over a certain density.

By 1910, Los Angeles skyrockets into this list, nearly tripling!
Excellent, thanks for digging that up.

And I like how it more closely aligns with the UA definition as opposed to the MSA county mash-up game, which would have made even less sense in 1900 than it does now.


Anyway, no jarring surprises there for me, but the twin cities ranking 12th overall, ahead of Milwaukee and Detroit, is a touch unexpected. Lends credence to chef's contention that grouping the twin cities with the "newer" midwest cities is pretty inaccurate, but that's why I always put the "newer" in quotes, because it's really less about age, and more about the degree to which a given city was reliant on HEAVY industry, before that whole world imploded on itself in the rust-belt. Minneapolis orbited far enough away from it to survive with far less economic damage than the cleveland's and chicago's and detroit's and milwaukee's and pittsburgh's of the rust-belt
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  #232  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
But that's 1950 definition. Cambria County had 209,541 people then, and looking at Wikipedia, I noticed Johnstown is very near the border with Somerset County (81,813 in 1950), both way above today's population. In general, 1950 definitions seem quite strict, so I believe Johnstown metro area would be better represented by the two county definition, and therefore having 290,000 inh.

For 1900, though, definitely it's one county metro area, and therefore, 104,000 inh.
Yeah, but this is where MSAs incorporating whole counties to make it an easier count just really goes astray.

I know the area very well. While Johnstown is not far from the Somerset County border, there's hardly anything in Somerset County near Johnstown... and there never has been. The area is a high, cold, wet plateau between two ridges of the Alleghenies in the Laurel Highlands. And the borough of Somerset, which peaked at under 7k in 2000 census is a good 20 miles away, with mainly farmland in between and little affiliation nor significant connection between the two. And Johnstown in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the southern half of Somerset County, nothing.

Johnstown has never been a large enough city to warrant a metro area of two entire counties. It's debateable if Johnstown should even have a metro area that includes all of Cambria County, since the northern portion of the county is just as, if not more, closely associated with the Altoona-Holidaysburg area.

I actually think that an Altoona-Johnstown MSA makes more sense.

Last edited by pj3000; Jan 26, 2021 at 3:08 AM.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 4:52 AM
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I think Minneapolis is more of a legacy city than people realize. Minneapolis and St Paul combined had around 365,000 people in 1900 which would have made it the eighth largest city in the US - larger than Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati, Washington or New Orleans.

There are two reasons why it isn't perceived as such. The original buildout of Minneapolis was extremely dense - almost its entire population of 200,000 in 1900 lived in what is now downtown. Other than the Warehouse District, a few mills along the river and some pockets in Elliot Park almost none of that city survives. Most of the city now is the streetcar suburbia that grew up between 1900 and 1930.

The other reason is that the city's main manufacturing industry was food processing which for the most part is still here, so the city didn't go through the same deindustrialization that the rust belt did in the 1980s. The Twin Cities actually have a fairly significant manufacturing component to their economy, it is just not in heavy industry to the same degree as other Midwestern cities were.
yep the first thing that comes to mind for a clevelander looking at minnys riverfront food history structures is gee, arent they lucky these buildings were for food and not heavy industry, which cant be redeveloped so easily.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
^ Was definitely bigger in the past. Johnstown area is one of the rustiest of the rusty. It might have encompassed areas outside Cambria County into Somerset and/or Indiana Counties.
If anyone wants to get a sense of what the Johnstown area was like as the decline began--but before the total implosion of its industrial economy--the 1983 Tom Cruise teen football movie "All the Right Moves" was filmed on location there. The cinematography is the best part of an otherwise lame movie--but again, it's interesting because that world is now gone. The factories and even the high school featured have since been torn down.
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  #235  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:34 AM
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If anyone wants to get a sense of what the Johnstown area was like as the decline began--but before the total implosion of its industrial economy--the 1983 Tom Cruise teen football movie "All the Right Moves" was filmed on location there. The cinematography is the best part of an otherwise lame movie--but again, it's interesting because that world is now gone. The factories and even the high school featured have since been torn down.
Yes, that's a good glimpse of Johnstown back in the 80s.

Also, Slap Shot... much of it filmed in Johnstown... one of the greatest achievements in film.

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  #236  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:50 AM
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Yes, that's a good glimpse of Johnstown back in the 80s.

Also, Slap Shot... much of it filmed in Johnstown... one of the greatest achievements in film.

No shit, I didn't know that! Slap Shot is hysterical!
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  #237  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 6:07 AM
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One of the Hanson brothers works at an ice arena in Pittsburgh.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/moon/...-sports-center
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  #238  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:25 PM
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I'm pretty sure Chicago metro has well-below-average crime rates overall. So it's unlikely that crime is a major factor in Chicago's (relative) stagnation.
I realize I'm late to the party with this comment, but I still wanted to add my 2¢.

While crime certainly hurts the perception of the city, Illinois is losing population across the entire state at this point. Chicago's suburbs used to be the only way the MSA was growing, and now many of them are declining like the rest of the state. Most are not high crime areas either with the same perception that the city suffers from.

Illinois' continued population loss is also part of the reason why St. Louis' MSA is completely stagnant this decade vs the 00s. In the 00s you still had the city losing population and St. Louis County starting to lose population / stagnate, but the core Metro East counties in Illinois were also growing, albeit modestly in comparison to the exploding St. Charles County, MO.

The last decade though? All of the Metro East counties lost population with the exception of one, Monroe, that gained approximately 2k people. This is a more rural outlying county that's dominated by two towns with approximately 10k each in the Metro East that, oddly enough due to St. Louis' weird geography, is actually in decent proximity to the city and south St. Louis County. Everyone else lost population, especially the core counties of St. Clair and Madison that lost just under a combined 20k people.

Is this the whole reason growth slowed? No, of course not, but it certainly didn't help. Especially as metro St. Louis' center of population gravity is continuing to move west and the growth patterns in the cities that are still growing in the Metro East are going further east.

My only take away is that the financial instability, taxes, etc, that came out of the budget impasse and the following administration have worried too many people. Illinois needs to get its house in order, otherwise I don't know if anywhere will grow in the near future outside of limited examples like Champaign.

Also, I'm not looking for an argument on Illinois' politics. I'm just pointing out that there's something going on statewide that needs a statewide solution. Part of it is also PR related, because you can still come out ahead tax wise in Illinois vs Missouri depending on your bracket due to MO's graduated income tax level, personal property tax, etc. People don't really realize that though, so that's another story.
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  #239  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:37 PM
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Isnt the chicago population flat, and losing older poorer people, and gaining younger more affluent people?
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  #240  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2021, 5:42 PM
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Just occurred to me that aside Osaka-Kyoto, Chicago is the largest metropolitan area in the world losing population.
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