Hamilton new Arena and Convention Centre

[SteelTown]

There's a lot of talk about a new arena and how that could impact First Ontario (Copps) and the current Convention Centre. So I'll create a single thread and as more details come out I'll separate based on projects.

[SteelTown]

City staff recommend building new 'right-sized' arena downtown
If the process starts in 2019, a report predicts the arena could open in 2023

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...town-1.5265557

City staff are recommending that a new "right-sized" arena be built downtown to replace FirstOntario Centre.

In next Wednesday's general issues committee meeting, councillors will review an Ernst and Young report on the city's entertainment venues.

Its most significant finding was that FirstOntario Centre is far too large for Hamilton.

In its final recommendations, the report says "a 'right-sized' facility with a 10,000 capacity would best serve the Hamilton market's demand from a capacity and programming perspective."

This starkly differs from the centre's capacity of 17,400 people — a capacity that isn't often met.

The report found that attendance at the venue for all events, including Hamilton Bulldogs games, concerts, and various special events, averaged around 4,991 people in 2018. When looking at just concerts, this number jumps to 9,140.

That same year, only 13 of 98 events required use of the upper bowl seating.

In December 2017, councillors approved that a third-party study be undertaken to evaluate the needs of venues and explore the options of divesting or relocating venues downtown.

In a letter to councillors, the director of economic development Glen Norton said that the ultimate goal was to find out how to "incentivise the private sector to undertake the redevelopment and operation of any/all entertainment assets" and/or to "strategically divest of any/all of the entertainment assets."

The report gave recommendations on Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre, FirstOntario Concert Hall, and the Hamilton Convention Centre.

In his letter, Norton said that staff are recommending a "three-phased entertainment renewal strategy" put forward by Ernst and Young, which includes building this new arena.

The report said that the new arena "is assumed to be built on another site in the immediate vicinity within downtown Hamilton."

The option is a multi-million dollar affair. It's estimated that land acquisition costs would be around $35 million, and construction costs are estimated to be between $115 and $130 million.

The report gave a five year timeline for the project, with an estimated opening in 2023.

Michael Andlauer proposes new arena at Lime Ridge Mall

Norton also mentioned that the city received an unsolicited new arena proposal in mid-August.

The committee will also review it at the Sept. 4 meeting.

While the city says the proposal will remain confidential, Michael Andlauer has gone public with his intention and excitement about building a new arena at Lime Ridge Mall. He is partnering with Cadillac Fairview, the owner of the mall.

Sam Merulla, a Ward 4 city councillor, said that Andlauer has been pitching the idea for a while, but that his vision wasn't part of the city's plan.

"Ultimately, we're saving tens of millions of dollars by what's being proposed downtown," he said. "That isn't the same deal [with Andlauer's proposal.]"

"He is looking for additional monies and we're not interested in getting into the arena business whether it's Lime Ridge Mall or elsewhere if it doesn't eliminate our capital and operating [expenses]."

Ward 2 councillor Jason Farr wants to keep everything in one place.

"I think it makes complete sense to keep all of our entertainment assets downtown," he said. "When you start getting involved with the private sector, they don't just make investments in those facilities, but in areas around those facilities."

But that doesn't mean that Andlauer is out of the picture.

"Downtown is not off the table either for Michael Andlauer," he said. "We just need to continue to work with him. He's a valuable partner…he will consider all and every option."

Convention centre events would move to former arena space

If the city follows through with the recommended three-phase plan, Ernst and Young estimates that Hamilton Bulldogs' attendance would increase by 50 per cent to around the current OHL average of 5,210 people. The report also projects a 15 per cent increase in attendance for cultural events.

In this three-phased plan, a new arena will be built on a site of a recommended 3.5 acres.

After it is built, the city is recommending that the former arena site be used to construct a new convention centre.

The report said that having a larger convention centre would open up Hamilton to compete for provincial and national business.

If all operations are moved over, the existing lands of the convention centre might be sold or redeveloped, subject to demolition.

And while the report explores the option of renovating the arena, it recommends against doing so. It says that it would require $54 million to return the building to its originally intended condition, and that its revenue would not outweigh municipal subsidy requirements.

In the letter to councillors, Norton said that priority was given to options that involved the downtown core and position the city to meet their objectives.

In a message to CBC Hamilton, Ryan McHugh from the economic development department at the city said that "the strategy recommended in Ernst and Young's report, which will be going to the General Issues Committee next Wednesday, does not recommend the divestment of any of the city's entertainment assets."

[SteelTown]

Ideally, I'd like to see the City sell the current Convention Centre and upgrade First Ontario Centre as the new Convention Centre.

I think we can all agree the current Sir John A. MacDonald high school is the perfect location for a new arena. I know the school board wanted to keep the land and applied for funding for a new community centre, however after Doug Ford got elected it seems like the project is dead. From my understanding if the school board does decide to sell the land they first must ask the city if they have interest before going for private bids. Use the money from selling the Convention Centre to buy the land.

[ChildishGavino]

Here's something I don't see talked about a lot: where are they going to build the new rink anyways? It's a genuine question, because most of downtown is made up of blocks too small for a proper rink & forecourt.

SJAM's going to be demolished, no matter what happens, and it looks to me to be the most enticing plot of land. Trouble is, the board isn't going to give up that property lightly, they have big plans. For example, even if they don't end up building that "community hub", they definitely want to build a 3rd Hess st. school.

Edit: whoops, SteelTown's message above wasn't there when I posted, so the stuff about SJAM is a bit redundant.

[SteelTown]

Here's the report, Sports, Entertainment and Convention Venues Review:

https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings...umentId=201727

[thistleclub]

Does the transition plan have the Bulldogs spending two seasons playing out of Mountain Arena?

[ChildishGavino]

I dont think anyone's thought of that right now. We don't know for sure if they're even getting an arena at all, although it is highly likely.

What seems likely is that they'll end up in Mississauga, Guelph, or St. Catherines, since they all have OHL sized rinks.

[ScreamingViking]

While I'd prefer the arena stay downtown, Lime Ridge isn't a bad second option. Fairly central to the city with good access (road and transit, though the latter could always be better), and it would be great to see some redevelopment in that area...

Putting a much bigger convention centre on the existing FOC footprint is intriguing too. I think that would be a better catalyst for more activity downtown than a new arena, but having both is the goal.

[Djeffery]

Wouldn't they just play at FOC until whatever new arena is done? Assuming of course that renovating FOC into a smaller arena isn't the plan.

[King&James]

SJAM would be a very interesting option, and like the idea of moving the convention space to FOC with a pedestrian weather protected connection between the two. Another site , although would need a move by GS Dunn could be the Vine/MacNab/York/Park St. With Coppley moving out , imagine what a neat space and blend of new and old that that block could become.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by King&James

SJAM would be a very interesting option, and like the idea of moving the convention space to FOC with a pedestrian weather protected connection between the two. Another site , although would need a move by GS Dunn could be the Vine/MacNab/York/Park St. With Coppley moving out , imagine what a neat space and blend of new and old that that block could become.

Allowing for not sure how the accuracy of the Google Earth measuring tool is, London's Budweiser Gardens or Moncton's new Avenir Centre wouldn't fit on that block and both are smaller seating capacity than what Hamilton is looking at. Although Budweiser if it had a full upper bowl instead of a horseshoe probably would be what they are after. The Avenir Centre has almost the same footprint as FOC does because of it's single bowl design. The Bud has lower and upper bowls, which means the arena is narrower, but this also means that "back of house" is at the end of the building. Dressing rooms, loading docks, Zamboni are all outside of the "bowl envelope" at the end of the building, which makes the building longer (almost as long as FOC).
But I'm no architect, so they can likely come up with a design to fit the available blocks downtown.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Wouldn't they just play at FOC until whatever new arena is done? Assuming of course that renovating FOC into a smaller arena isn't the plan.

That's certainly the default option: The Bulldogs play at FOC until council decides what it's doing. And if, as was csuggested early in the process, the a build will be financed largely or entirely by private partners, that speeds things along considerably.

But there's not a great deal of clarity on this vision, and part of that is down to the club ownership itself.

In November 2017, Andlauer was talking up a 5K- to 10K-seat arena to be built somewhere in the city, suggesting a price tag of $60M-$100M. Three months later, he was pledging to match city investment dollar-for-dollar. Earlier this year Andlauer championed this as a project that belonged downtown, and insisted that the new facility have a strong high-density residential component to it. But then six months later he's all about a suburban location next to a shopping mall surrounded by parking lots. That's not exactly a brownfield, and Lime Ridge isn't hurting for business. Mississauga didn’t build their arena as a wing of Square One; they built it 5km north of that shopping centre, near the intersection off the 401 and 403. Direct highway access is part of the reason why there has been talk of an OHL arena on the land directly east of Aldershot GO.

Andlauer has spoken about wanting in to be in a new facility by 2021. That seems ambitious, given that it took two and a half years to build the current arena, from groundbreaking to ribbon cutting. but the team’s leases on the arena refresh in three-year increments, so that’s the owner’s real leverage. That and the fact that they’re the primary tenant of the facility. (Even so, concerts are averaging 9,100 a night and the Bulldogs are averaging 4,000 a game at home over 34 games. So in theory, book an additional 15 concerts a year and you’re back where you started. This season, 28 of the Bulldogs’ home games this year fell Friday-Sunday, which are prime sells from a booking perspective, and also lousy days to add thousands of additional vehicles to a mall parking lot.)

Regardless of where Andlauer wants to see the new facility built, his best option is to assemble the private partners to make it happen. The province has hobbled all municipalities, and those financial woes will only become compounded through at least June 2022. Hamilton isn't spending money on essentials, let along fronting additional tens of millions to rejuvenate entertainment facilities.

Plus, the City only managed to finance its last big piece of sports infrastructure by splitting capital costs with the feds and province, and pulling its $45M share of the $145M build from the Future Fund (thereby avoiding having to justify a residential tax levy). Even so, that was a two year build prefaced by two years of farcical debate around siting. Better to tap into corporate partners and build an arena without going cap-in-hand to council.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Here's the report, Sports, Entertainment and Convention Venues Review:

https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings...umentId=201727

Breezed through this report really quickly - it's 130 pages so...

Here's a little tidbit early on in the report. Starting on page 8, you can see that sporting events (ie hockey) are the most common use of the FOC facility. However, revenue from said events are almost nil; if fact they appear to be barely in the black. Entertainment events (ie concerts and family-oriented fun) are clearly a more profitable use of the space.

Recommendations start on p68. Comments above have already largely addressed them.

Sports entertainment is a peculiar beast. I don't think there's been a credible report outlining the economic advantages of a city having a major sports franchise for some time. Would New York be less a city without the Yankees and Knicks? Ninety percent of its residents and 99% of the world wouldn't even notice. So why are we so hell-bent on spending astronomical amounts of dough on such things. Pride? Nostalgia? Cheering for (dirty) laundry?

I suppose we've been doing this for some time. I mean, in Ancient Rome, who paid for all those lions and tigers and elephants? It wasn't Caesar, that's for sure...

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Re FOC

Just one more note: Appendix A survey question 5. To what extent do you feel each of the following entertainment venues contributes to the vibrancy and quality of life in downtown Hamilton?

Just under half the respondents felt that FOC was 'extremely important': the highest among the facilities surveyed.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There's this irrational part of me that still believes Hamilton might land an NHL team. Just this tiny little irritating part of my brain. To what extent does that thought impact the response to that question?

I really feel this issue must be framed in economic or financial terms rather than an emotional one.
e.g. The City of Hamilton spends $xxx on sports and entertainment facilities per year. This amounts to $xxx per taxpayer per year. Over the past 5 years, these facilities have seen a net loss/gain of $xxx per resident. To what extent to you feel this is a good investment of taxpayer monies?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Re FOC

Just one more note: Appendix A survey question 5. To what extent do you feel each of the following entertainment venues contributes to the vibrancy and quality of life in downtown Hamilton?

Just under half the respondents felt that FOC was 'extremely important': the highest among the facilities surveyed.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There's this irrational part of me that still believes Hamilton might land an NHL team. Just this tiny little irritating part of my brain. To what extent does that thought impact the response to that question?

I really feel this issue must be framed in economic or financial terms rather than an emotional one.
e.g. The City of Hamilton spends $xxx on sports and entertainment facilities per year. This amounts to $xxx per taxpayer per year. Over the past 5 years, these facilities have seen a net loss/gain of $xxx per resident. To what extent to you feel this is a good investment of taxpayer monies?

I made this comment somewhere in one of the various threads talking about this. As you say, there's a large emotional connection to that building. FOC is what, the 8th largest hockey arena in the country (behind 6 of the 7 NHL arenas and Quebec City)? I think it's a sense of civic pride to have a large arena, even if it does cost to have it and people will be reluctant to get rid of it.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton councillors will explore replacing FirstOntario Centre
Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer is proposing a new arena at Lime Ridge Mall

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ties-1.5270802

Hamilton city council will look at partnering with the private sector to build a new $130-million arena downtown to replace FirstOntario Centre. But that isn't stopping some councillors from suggesting that the facility go on the Mountain instead.

The city's general issues committee voted Wednesday to set up a steering committee, hire a project manager and look at partnering with private companies to replace the city's largest entertainment venue with a smaller one.

The move came after city staff said Hamilton needs a "right-sized" venue to replace the former Copps Coliseum — one with about 10,000 seats rather than the 17,400 the aging arena has now.

Esther Pauls, Ward 7 (central Mountain) councillor, will introduce a motion in the future backing Hamilton Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer's proposal to put the facility at Lime Ridge Mall.

Terry Whitehead (Ward 14, west Mountain) hinted that he pulled for that during the in-camera discussion.

"There were some great conversations," he said. "I think going forward, eliminating any option as to what's best for the taxpayers of this community might be somewhat shortsighted."

The city is looking at establishing a precinct that also includes FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre. FirstOntario Centre needs extensive repairs, and the city gives it an ongoing subsidy. The Bulldogs are the main tenant, and the staff report predicts attendance at those OHL games would increase 20 to 50 per cent with a new facility. Increased revenue, staff say, would bring in $20 million over the next 30 years.

But it would cost as much as $130 million to build a new facility, the report says. And some councillors are hesitant to tackle that price tag.

The report assumes the city needs to act on the existing facilities, said Coun. John-Paul Danko (Ward 8, central Mountain), and "that base assumption, I'm not sold on that."

It's a debate that started back in 2017. That's when a group of private businesses volunteered to spend $250,000 on a study that would look at upgrading the venues, tearing them down to build them in a cluster, or even relocating them somewhere else. The group said it was doing it for the good of the city, although one of the members, Carmen's Group, manages the convention centre and once made a pitch to manage all three.

The staff report proposes a main venue with a capacity of around 10,000. FirstOntario Centre has an existing capacity of 17,400 people, although the report shows that isn't met often. Attendance for all events, including concerts and Bulldogs games, averaged around 4,991 people in 2018. When looking at just concerts, that number jumps to 9,140.

That same year, only 13 of 98 events required use of the upper bowl seating.

Andlauer has partnered with Cadillac Fairview to propose the new arena at Lime Ridge Mall. City staff say keeping the venues downtown is a better bet, particularly since people can use more environmentally-friendly methods to get there than driving their car.

Council should stay open to Andlauer's proposal, Pauls said. Lime Ridge Mall is popular and one of the city's largest property tax payers, she said.

She also said Lime Ridge is "literally five minutes away" from downtown for someone taking the bus, although HSR schedules show it to be around 20 minutes from the MacNab transit terminal.

[ChildishGavino]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

She also said Lime Ridge is "literally five minutes away" from downtown for someone taking the bus, although HSR schedules show it to be around 20 minutes from the MacNab transit terminal.

Sounds about right from someone who's probably never ridden a bus in her life.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by ChildishGavino

Sounds about right from someone who's probably never ridden a bus in her life.

Sounds like the same sort of exaggeration as when they were thinking of building the stadium in the east mountain and being close to downtown was one of the advantages.

[HamiltonBoyInToronto]

Ok so we can all agree that there are morons on city council .... But how can we stop them from destroying our city ??

[ChildishGavino]

Elect some new morons in a few years.