Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton - Page 4

DC83 · #61 Posted **Dec 12, 2007, 6:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

The city really should create some kind of tax break or leasing agreement to get them to locate downtown. They will only locate downtown if there is incentive. Sears downtown would incubate the area as a retail destination. Getting the store to locate downtown is pivotal to the future of the core.

But the article says they will not build a new building. So where downtown Hamilton is there enough space to locate? The old Eaton's Str & 3rd Level is now City Hall (for the next cpl of years), Street-level is all retail, and I'm almost 100% they wouldn't locate on the 1st floor. That would be strange.
So where downtown could they lease?

It's pretty evident they'll be heading to Eastgate. I have also heard rumours about The Bay moving out, so that would be perfect space that's "not far" from Centre Mall. There's also "one floor so poeple can push their carts through".

HBC is suffering, and is owned by an American who could care less about Canadian Culture. Sadly, I think HBC in The Bay format has seen it's day.

fastcarsfreedom · #62 Posted **Dec 12, 2007, 8:31 PM**

I for one would be very surprised if The Bay were to leave Eastgate--I try to keep my ear to rumors like that and that's the first I've heard of it. That being said, it's fair to say that The Bay's space at Eastgate is awkward--it's was a one-floor Robinson's location previously--and is unusually laid out for The Bay's format. Nonetheless, as RTH mentioned--closing that store would drastically alter their footprint in the market. At one time I had heard they were considering moving the Queenston Road Zellers (itself an ex-Towers) over to Eastgate (perhaps to the ex-Wal*Mart)--but most discounters are building "off mall" now, so that seems less likely.

As for The Bay--no one has a sweet clue how The Bay is doing financially--so any speculation about it's financial health is exactly that--speculation. As opposed to being "obselete" HBC is investing fairly heavily in The Bay division--renovating it's downtown flagships and striking marketing deals that allow it to sell macy*s private label brands in Canada.

As I've shared here before--the end of Centre is sad, inasmuch as it played a key role in the transformation of retail in that era. The Sears location, having been the rare creature that has endured under one name (the Centre's other major anchor has had 4 names in the same time). It's closure is unfortunate, and it will be a fixture in that neighborhood that will be missed.

markbarbera · #63 Posted **Dec 13, 2007, 9:44 PM**

Hamilton has not been a good market for The Bay format. It has less than a 20-year retail history in Hamilton, and expanded into our area only after buying up the cash-strapped Robinson's brand. So, quietly extracting this format from the Hamilton market after a tepid 20-year presence is certainy not that surprising. Those stores that were converted to The Bay brand were never really successful at drawing business from Sears, their major competitor in the Hamilton area. Zellers is the only HBC format that does well in our market, other than possibly the Home Outfitters at Lime Ridge.

I would not be surprised to see the Bay format completely abandoned in Hamilton. They only have two stores here currently, and both have tell-tale signs of dog-earred interior/exteriors. Eastgate in particular looks like a store whose renovation is on hold until HBC decides if it should stay put as is. And, while I do not have personal access to HBC books since it was taken into private ownership by Jerry Zucker, just sitting on a bench by their Eastgate entrance and counting the people entering the shop (or more importantly, exiting with parcels) gives an accurate picture of how poorly that location is doing.

There has been talk for some time that Zucker wants The Bay out of certain markets - here's an exerpt from a National Post article on that topic:

Quote:

The new U.S. owner of Hudson's Bay Co. is trying to unload as many as 80 stores across Canada, in a move industry sources speculate could result in one of the giant retailer's major brand outlets leaving one region of the country altogether.

Sources say that HBC, which was acquired by South Carolina billionaire Jerry Zucker for $1.7-billion this month, has prepared a list of store leases it would like to exit and is now asking other retailers whether they would consider taking over the space.

The entire article can be read here.

BrianE · #64 Posted **Dec 14, 2007, 2:16 PM**

Not to make this thread about the Bay or anything. But I just don't see how they compete with other stores. They carry all the same products but are almost always much more expensive than at sears or homesense. If you go to limeridge just look at an appliance in The Bay then walk to the other end of the mall and along the way you might find that same product a 3 different stores for much much less.

It would be a shame if they left the Hamilton area because every once in a while i find some clothing at a reasonable price there, but I have to really look hard for it.

HAMRetrofit · #65 Posted **Dec 14, 2007, 3:06 PM**

Actually my wife loves the Bay. She buys most of our kitchen, towels, and bedding stuff there. I don't know how the Downtown Bay stores here in Toronto compare to ones in Hamilton but they seem to offer good or decent quality things. They seem to be doing quite well here.

DC83 · #66 Posted **Dec 14, 2007, 3:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Actually my wife loves the Bay. She buys most of our kitchen, towels, and bedding stuff there. I don't know how the Downtown Bay stores here in Toronto compare to ones in Hamilton but they seem to offer good or decent quality things. They seem to be doing quite well here.

To be honest, the only thing that The Bay downtown (TO) at Yonge/Queen offers that mall strs don't is the character of the bldg (old-style dept str with big display windows, gorgeous architecture, etc).

Everything else is completely the same. OH and the Queen/Yonge has a resto in the basement.

SteelTown · #67 Posted **Dec 14, 2007, 10:12 PM**

Farmers market on the move
Dec 13, 2007

The open-air farmers market at Centre Mall appears to have found a new home on Ottawa Street, and an interim one halfway between the current location and the new one.

A flyer being distributed at the market says the 52-year-old institution will move to the corner of Barton and Ottawa streets at the beginning of 2008 and expects to be there until March when it will likely move to a permanent location south of Barton in the parking lots just east of Ottawa Street.

“We are negotiating on a piece of property owned by the City of Hamilton and expect to have this fixed to our needs by the first to the middle of March,” explains the flyer. “At this time our name will be changed to Ottawa Street Farmers Market and we will be open Friday and Saturday as normal.”

The relocation to the Ottawa Street parking lots requires a council approval and is expected to be on the agenda of the January 15 meeting of the economic development and planning committee.

The last day in the current location behind Centre Mall will be December 29.

matt602 · #68 Posted **Dec 14, 2007, 11:12 PM**

Noticed during my trip to the Centre an hour ago that Ellis Don has an office inside of the mall now. I found this weird because I don't think I've ever seen them do a project in Hamilton before (they seem to only do stuff in Toronto). Change is imminent now...

fastcarsfreedom · #69 Posted **Dec 18, 2007, 4:07 AM**

Your take on The Bay is interesting markbarbera. I don't think it's completely unfeasable that The Bay could leave Eastgate--I've mentioned on here before that in the briefs that came out when Eaton's was liquidated--it's store at Eastgate was an absolute dog--one of the worst in the entire chain. That being said, The Bay has it's place in the market and it would be very surprising to me to see them leave Hamiton, as you've suggested. They have no natural competitor locally or in most cases, nationally. Though often compared to Sears--The Bay is upmarket of Sears and fits in the market segment where Eaton's also was. While Eastgate may be challenged (as you suggest)--I highly doubt that the Burlington, Mapleview and Lime Ridge stores are suffering. I've never noted any "dogearedness" at Lime Ridge whatsoever--it was heavily renovated by Eaton's in the early 1990s, and again when The Bay moved in in 2000. That "spot" at Lime Ridge was always a winner when Eaton's occupied it--it consistently ranked among the top stores in the chain. Simply put, there are plenty of middle and upper-middle income earners in the area (and more moving in all the time) for HBC to drop The Bay entirely in Hamilton. Truth be told, The Bay is likely to survive in name long after Zellers has been put out to pasture.

Also, to make a minor revision--The Bay's history in Hamilton dates back to it's takeover of the Morgan's chain in the 1960s--The Bay inhabitited the Morgan's location at Centre Mall before selling that location to Robinson's--from which it reacquired it and converted it to a Zellers. The Bay returned to the local market when Mapleview Centre opened in 1990--and later upon it's acquisition of Robinson's. I will point out that The Bay recently closed a former Robinson's it acquired--the one at Niagara Square in NF (in favor of the Pen Centre location, which is a former Eaton's), and it is replacing the former Robinson's in Waterloo.

It's important to note that in locations where department stores actually lease space (as opposed to owning their own buildings)--they generally pay a comparative pittance in rent compared to the inline stores in the malls. Dogearedness is also not uncommon. The local Bay store here in Windsor is a big 3 level behemoth that the company converted from the Simpsons name in the late 1980s. It does a good business and is dog-eared as hell. 20 years on and you can still clearly read the labelscar from the big cursive Simpsons logo on the building--and the interior of the store--beyond some cosmetic work on the main level is vintage--old light fixtures, broken and water-stained ceiling tiles, vinatge 1970 restrooms and an elevator cab decorated in orange and wood-grain. These department chains (Sears is just as guilty) have been big on "deferred maintenance" for years--I know it's about to go--but have you looked around the Sears at the Centre?...the place is a museum.

LikeHamilton · #70 Posted **Dec 19, 2007, 5:19 AM**

I was taking to one of my neighbours who has worked at the Sears store at the Centre mall for a lot of years and she said they have been just recently told that they are moving the store and most of the jobs are safe. They are moving to the present Bay store at Eastgate Mall. She did not think the staff at the Bay store knows that the store will be closed in the new year.

SteelTown · #71 Posted **Dec 19, 2007, 4:09 PM**

I suppose The Bay is leaving Inner city Hamilton.

raisethehammer · #72 Posted **Dec 19, 2007, 4:52 PM**

what?? when was it ever in inner city Hamilton?

SteelTown · #73 Posted **Dec 19, 2007, 4:57 PM**

Oh yea Eastgate well it's on the border of Hamilton and Stoney Creek.

markbarbera · #74 Posted **Dec 19, 2007, 9:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I've never noted any "dogearedness" at Lime Ridge whatsoever--it was heavily renovated by Eaton's in the early 1990s, and again when The Bay moved in in 2000.

The interiors were reconfigured recently (central service centres, shopping carts), but this was to test an alternative shopping format and was not a full refurbishment. Take a good look at the exterior entrances to The Bay at Lime Ridge - peeling paint by the banners - and only at the store entrances (within the leased area whose maintenance is the responsibility of the lessee)- all common mall entrances are very well-maintained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Truth be told, The Bay is likely to survive in name long after Zellers has been put out to pasture..

Really? At the time of Zucker's takeover, Zellers was the profitable banner carrying The Bay banner for HBC. Do you have insider information to show such a significant performance turnaround that Zellers' is now in danger of being put out to pasture?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

It's important to note that in locations where department stores actually lease space (as opposed to owning their own buildings)--they generally pay a comparative pittance in rent compared to the inline stores in the malls... ...These department chains (Sears is just as guilty) have been big on "deferred maintenance" for years--I know it's about to go--but have you looked around the Sears at the Centre?...the place is a museum.

...except that the Centre Mall site was part of the Sears real estate portfolio. Ownership vs. leaseholding does not factor into the condition of the store. Uncertainty of its future is what holds a retailer back from an investment in its refurbishment. And the Centre Mall location was obviously earmarked for 'retirement'.

fastcarsfreedom · #75 Posted **Dec 20, 2007, 12:32 AM**

Agreed markbarbera--the Centre was earmarked for retirement--but it's not like there was significant capital put into the building at any time over the past 50 odd years.

The "reconfiguration" of The Bay at Lime Ridge was/is part of a chainwide initiative--it's currently all the rage in retail (particularly department stores) to go to a format with more centralized service areas and shopping carts (in the U.S. macy*s, Penney, Kohls, etc are all following this trend) HBC has an agreement in place with macy*s that allows The Bay to market/sell many of macy*s "house brand" fashions (alfani, I.N.C., etc).

As for Zellers--I have no insider information regarding Zellers--with the exception of what was available while HBC was still publically traded. What I do know about Zellers is that it has a fraction of Wal*Mart's market share and that while the chain may be profitable, those profits come from a small portion of it's locations. It continues to operate dozens of stores in various states of disrepair--some dating to the Towers and Kmart acquisitions--and long-term I don't see Zucker having the stomach to continue to fight Wal*Mart nationally. That being said Zellers has some fantastic real estate--and I continue to believe that Target Corp will ultimately acquire "most" of the chain, in the same way Wal*Mart entered the Canadian market. Can't help but think Zucker will prep Home Outfitters for eventual sale also.

markbarbera · #76 Posted **Dec 21, 2007, 5:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

The "reconfiguration" of The Bay at Lime Ridge was/is part of a chainwide initiative--it's currently all the rage in retail (particularly department stores) to go to a format with more centralized service areas and shopping carts (in the U.S. macy*s, Penney, Kohls, etc are all following this trend) HBC has an agreement in place with macy*s that allows The Bay to market/sell many of macy*s "house brand" fashions (alfani, I.N.C., etc).

As for Zellers--I have no insider information regarding Zellers--with the exception of what was available while HBC was still publically traded. What I do know about Zellers is that it has a fraction of Wal*Mart's market share and that while the chain may be profitable, those profits come from a small portion of it's locations. It continues to operate dozens of stores in various states of disrepair--some dating to the Towers and Kmart acquisitions--and long-term I don't see Zucker having the stomach to continue to fight Wal*Mart nationally. That being said Zellers has some fantastic real estate--and I continue to believe that Target Corp will ultimately acquire "most" of the chain, in the same way Wal*Mart entered the Canadian market. Can't help but think Zucker will prep Home Outfitters for eventual sale also.

Given HBC's marketing strategy reinforcing Zellers as a Canadian alternative to Wal-Mart, plus the investment in the new Zellers superstore format (complete with full grocery department - new Centre location will be like this), I would hesitate to suggest Zucker is maneuvering to dump these locations. However, it is interesting to note the introduction of Macy's private label products into The Bay stores. This would suggest a subtle test of consumer response to the Macy's product line, and perhaps a slow transition of the Bay brand to the Macy's format. I think it's more likely that HBC will sell suburban Bay stores to Federated (to be converted to Macy's format), and HBC will maintain the (more profitable) urban locations of The Bay and the entire Zellers, Fields and Home Outfitters lines.

fastcarsfreedom · #77 Posted **Dec 21, 2007, 11:47 PM**

Well, it wouldn't be Federated's first attempt at coming to Canada--they wanted Eaton's best 40 or so stores during Eaton's 1997 CCAA filing. I'm surprised Sears has stuck it out with the converted Eaton's flagships--it's expressed a real disinterest a few times in keeping those locations. Mind you it has now downsized Toronto to the point that it's almost suburban-like. Considering they are moving their HQ into the building, I guess they now plan to stay.

raisethehammer · #78 Posted **Dec 26, 2007, 3:06 PM**

anyone hear anything about the so-called 'destination' store that is supposed to be announced any day now?

realcity · #79 Posted **Dec 27, 2007, 3:25 PM**

Destination store? that's ridiculous to say. the area was/is supposed to be a regional destination. A regional retail destination doesn't happen with an A&W and Walmart. The majority of the stores are supposed to be destination. Retail is either destination or parasitic. like food courts that thrive off the shoppers that went there for another reason. They're dreaming for a regional destination at best a local shopping area that will not draw in any new money from the area resulting is closing of nearby retail, forever making it difficult for local retail to ever thrive in the area again. I bet East Hamilton Radio will move into the complex.

raisethehammer · #80 Posted **Dec 27, 2007, 3:31 PM**

I doubt that...I'm guessing that EHR owns their site. Why pay insane big box rent prices when you own your own site??

Speaking of which, I saw a storefront the other day (I think Up. Wellington and Mohawk) which had a sign indicating a new store moving in from Mountain Plaza in the new year....hopefully much of the retail in Centre Mall and Mountain Plaza will go to nearby 'streets'. The Ottawa St farmers market will be a great addition next spring.
I'm somewhat interested to see the newest plans for Centre Mall...the owners now say that after hearing from the community they are going to have a pedestrian-theme throughout .... sidewalks, benches, trees, bike locks, a restaurant area with patio etc.... I'll believe it when I see it, but here's hoping.