Times when your city "Thought Big"; Time when your city "Thought Small"

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The Ontario Line so far seems like a surprisingly effective project despite it's source and the politics behind it. Much more out of the box thinking that what it replaced.

I agree with this. The TTC's Relief Line was flawed enough that I think it deserved to go back to the drawing board based on merits alone. It's unfortunate that Toronto has a bad history of political interference on transit projects and reinventing plans, but this time it was worth it. I just hope it actually happens.

I mean, you have to think of the context when the Union Station project started. I believe it was around 2006 - GO ran hourly service on the two lakeshore lines and had a handful of trains on the other lines during peak hours only. The stouffville line, which is planned to offer 7 minute frequencies by the end of the decade, featured, I believe, 3 trains in the peak period. GO, and the amount of traffic through Union, was completely different than today and what is proposed in the future.

There were absolutely no plans for GO RER like there are today, and the amount of employment in the core was probably about half of what it is today.

What they are constructing was "thinking big" for the time, it's just that 9 years later someone thought even bigger with GO RER.

I get that, but even in the early 2000s, it was apparent that the primary problem was the circulation offered by the narrow 1920s-era platforms, rather than the constraints of the concourse.

Just like today, it took 10 minutes for 2,000 people exiting a GO train to clear the platform because they all had to walk single file to a narrow stairway. There may have been fewer trains back then, but the trains that ran were still pretty much full, and it would not have been too much of a reach back then to have made a rebuilding of the track and platform layout a central priority of the project.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Toronto thinking big:

- RC Harris was a visionary city builder during the City Beautiful era who basically built the infrastructure that allowed Toronto to double in size. Toronto's geography consists of a number of snaking river valleys that prevent the city from growing outward, especially to the north and east. Many of these were overcome with large viaducts built by RC Harris - most famously the Prince Edward (Bloor) viaduct, which plays a role in Ondaatje's "In the Skin of a Lion".

- Union Station was an impressive station for a city of Toronto's size, and is in the perfect location. Montreal was a bigger and more important city at the time and, for some reason, had 3 mediocre stations rather than 1 grand one.

- Toronto's first subway line, 1954. This was important not only because it was Canada's first rapid transit system, but because it was built at a time when transit was falling off a cliff across the rest of North America. The way it was built probably helped cement Toronto as an urban city where public transit matters. The subway was also revolutionary for its time because it featured things like bus terminals within stations to allow for easy mode-to-mode transfer.

- The reconstruction of Pearson airport in the early 2000s. They could have done the classic Canadian cheap-out move but the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, under the leadership of Lou Turpen, decided to tear down two operating terminals (both badly out of date), and build one, gigantic super Terminal 1. Pearson went from being a terrible airport to being a great one. If Terminal 1 is busy and crowded now, it's because it's a victim of its own success. I don't know how Air Canada could have turned Toronto in a major Star Alliance hub if it weren't for Terminal 1.

Toronto thinking small:

- Goddamnit, we have the biggest collection of losers on our city council. Our weak mayor, strong ward system allows [mostly] suburbanites to vote small-minded, corrupt small businessmen types who only care about low property taxes to make city-wide decisions. Makes it very hard to do visionary projects at a municipal level. Luckily, Doug Ford's culling of half the council actually removed some of the biggest offenders.

- Union station rebuild. This is a colossal shitshow and should be taught as a lesson in how not to do project management. Torontonians have endured construction for over a decade to basically build a station that will be obsolete the day it finally opens. As far as I understand, they will have to redo a good chunk of the platforms to allow for the electrified RER system GO wants to build.

- Gardiner Expressway "Hybrid" option. Instead of tearing down the eastern leg of the Gardiner or burying it, city council committed to renovating it and shifting its alignment slightly at the far eastern end. This guarantees that Toronto will continue to have a blight on its waterfront, and it will gobble up a significant portion of the city's capital budget for the next ten years, probably preventing other, more-needed projects from happening.

- Most transit projects are shortsighted boondoggles here. There are too many to mention.

I might add the ravine parks to Toronto's "big" list.

[savevp]

Fantastic thread idea!

I personally see Union Station as Toronto thinking big. So much criticism of architecture in Toronto involves the baAnaAl glaAs boxes and boring architecture, and ignored public realm. Union has, with the exception of the lighting and floors of the VIA concourse, made every last detail top notch. The washrooms with marble and wood accents, the chandeliers, the branding; this has truly been a world-leading project despite the delays. The pessimism surrounding it, I'd argue, reflects Toronto's relative inexperience with creating this kind of world-class project that doesn't spare the details. Frankly, I'd rather Toronto compromise on timelines and procurement to have a central station befitting its status, rather than the usual bland (but pragmatic) compromise that we are used to. It seems rare for English Canada to throw caution to the wind and pursue excellence like this. Yes, the platform situation is pretty horrific, but in totality, I think this project (and the Don Mouth revitalisation) is Toronto thinking very big.

Meanwhile, small-thinking Toronto manifests itself in the dour, Protestant, Southern Ontario gothic mindset surrounding "vices" in the city; the rejection of the casino, the bizarre inability for council to finally legalise drinking in parks, the 2am last call. That to me is small Toronto.

I think in general, Toronto will have a particular dichotomy of thinking big and small because of how quickly it's grown. It was only in the '70s when Toronto went from Provincial city to National city, and only in the last 15yr or so that it's been going from National to World city. There is bound to be some lag before Toronto fully sees itself as a top global city, which it has already become in many aspects.

[ChildishGavino]

I think the issue with the tracks has to do with when it was built. Not all of those platforms were meant for passengers, that's why they're so narrow. Lots of them were meant for mail trains. Regardless, Union is one of my favourite stations in the country (I'm partial to Pacific Central though) and certainly deserves the renovations & restorations it's been having.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

the only "big" mountian access is really Claremont though. All the other ones have substandard grades and are generally very old. Centennial isn't substandard but it was built by the MTO in the 1920's.

Hamilton's big thinking list (for better or for worse) to me is;

- The expressways - Red Hill, Linc, Burlington St.
- The Steel Plants
- Downtown rail tunnel (pretty unique piece of infra)
- LRT (if it happens)

If it happens, LRT will be in spite of Hamilton thinking small. This is definitely not an example of the city thinking big. To be clear, some people in Hamilton were definitely thinking big, but boy was that a depressing saga to watch from afar.

As for KW, It think they generally do a pretty good job thinking big, although we're not always for the better because of it. I'd say the most notable are the Conestoga Parkway and Ion LRT. Both are emblematic of their eras. The Parkway coinciding with the other big thinking ideas of the time - multiple downtown malls (two in Kitchener and one in Waterloo), and the Ion LRT coinciding with the massive rejuvenation and rebuilding in the downtown areas and along the corridor (including an excellent redevelopment of the old depressing mall in Uptown Waterloo).

I'd say the area where the city most often falls short is in the arts and culture. I can't say it's for lack of trying on the part of different groups either, but it seems to be that the community collectively isn't really all that engaged with them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by jamincan

If it happens, LRT will be in spite of Hamilton thinking small. This is definitely not an example of the city thinking big. To be clear, some people in Hamilton were definitely thinking big, but boy was that a depressing saga to watch from afar.

As for KW, It think they generally do a pretty good job thinking big, although we're not always for the better because of it. I'd say the most notable are the Conestoga Parkway and Ion LRT. Both are emblematic of their eras. The Parkway coinciding with the other big thinking ideas of the time - multiple downtown malls (two in Kitchener and one in Waterloo), and the Ion LRT coinciding with the massive rejuvenation and rebuilding in the downtown areas and along the corridor (including an excellent redevelopment of the old depressing mall in Uptown Waterloo).

I'd say the area where the city most often falls short is in the arts and culture. I can't say it's for lack of trying on the part of different groups either, but it seems to be that the community collectively isn't really all that engaged with them.

The exception, I would say, being “serious” music (although the extraordinary KW Chamber Music Society is probably unknown to most of the population).

[someone123]

Toronto had really good infrastructure development for a while. If you look at say 1916-1966 the city's transportation network was completely transformed with progressive projects over that whole period. Then it kind of went downhill starting in about the 80's.

[MolsonExport]

Montreal's infrastructure heyday was from 1960-1975. A renaissance is on right now but it pales to the transformation witnessed during those golden 15 years.

[Denscity]

Towers and a new subway line for Montreal correct? Anything else on the current list?

[MolsonExport]

the new Champlain bridge came online last year. Busiest bridge in Canada.

[Acajack]

Work is also set to begin this fall I think on the extension of the blue line of the métro in Montreal's east end.

Also not sure I would call the REM "just a line". It is 67 km long with 26 stations and 2-3 "antennes" or branches off of it.

While they have way more stations due to less spacing between stations, the REM is of comparable length to the entire Montréal métro (68 km) or TTC subway (76 km).

[MolsonExport]

The largest infrastructure project in Canada at the moment. A great example of Montreal "Thinking Big". Fantastic complement to the Metro.

[Razor]

Yes real cool thread idea!..I don't have anything for Ottawa which hasn't already been said, although IMO the original Melnyk and co. Lebreton flats "big thinking" redevelopment seemed a little underwhelming at first glance, then of course it became a shit show. Then there are some cities that are smallish like Ottawa, but just have the vision. Look at Edmonton building a Light rail back in the 70's or 80's whenever that was. Calgary always seems to think big as well.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Regina thinking big

- Just putting a city on the bald prairie beside a shallow creek is thinking big.
- Some beautiful early city planning
- State of the art Football Stadium

Small thinking
- Abandonment of the downtown

[SaskScraper]

^ could add the freeway system in Regina is bigger than what most any other city same size has in Canada.

Global Transportation Hub just west of Regina was thinking big but it hasn't quite lived up to its distribution hub-for-the-Prairies expectation as of yet.

For Saskatoon I would say back during the depression of the 1930's, CN railway took a chance and built the Bessborough Hotel, and it has defined the skyline of the city ever since... until maybe the half billion dollar Riverland project including Remi Modern & next door Persephone arts theatre in South downtown, and another quarter billion spent on north downtown's Police station and new Central Library proposal announced last year.

SaskTel Centre coliseum, built for NHL sized events back when city was half population it is today is thinking big.

Saskatoon seems to like to build a lot of bridges for the size of the city, there are currently 34 lanes of traffic that cross the South Saskatchewan River within city limits.

Saskatoon thought big when it planned to host World University Games in 2007 but city council backed out by vote of 6 to 5 before winning city of Bangkok eventually went on to win the bid to host those games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Summer_Universiade

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Saskatoon thought big when it planned to host World University Games in 2007 but city council backed out by vote of 6 to 5 before winning city of Bangkok eventually went on to win the bid to host those games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Summer_Universiade

That's interesting, I don't remember that at all. Was the plan for all the athletics events to host them in a temporarily expanded Griffiths Stadium or was a new venue part of the plan?

[Nashe]

To me it sounds like a situation where they THOUGHT they were thinking big but ended up thinking SMALL.

Built a causeway in 1968 to create a river crossing and reduce erosion downstream. Ended up practically destroying the river.

Petitcodiac River

"In 1968, a controversial rock-and-earth fill causeway was built between Moncton and Riverview to prevent agricultural flooding and to carry a crossing between the two communities. The causeway caused many problems for the river and its surrounding ecosystem. An estimated 10 million cubic metres (13 million cubic yards) of silt was deposited in the 4.7 km (2.9 mi) of river downstream from the causeway in the first three years following construction. The causeway restricted the movement of fish and reduced the region's salmon catches by 82 percent. Water quality has also dropped thanks to industrial expansion around the area. In 2003, Earthwild International designated the Petitcodiac River as the most endangered river in Canada because of these problems. On 14 April 2010, the causeway's gates were opened permanently as part of a $68 million three-phase project designed to restore the river. The river will no longer flow through the causeway gates at all come 2020, when a permanent bridge will be completed to redirect water the way it naturally flowed."

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

the new Champlain bridge came online last year. Busiest bridge in Canada.

The new Champlain bridge is a spectacular infrastructure, but let's not forget the brand new Turcot exchange, the busiest in Canada and it's almost complete now with a budget of just under 4 billions $.

It was a crazy site because they actually started building the new roads and bridges while demolishing the older ones, the whole thing has been reconfigured completely.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CFlJSnZJAMg/

[MolsonExport]

The previous turcot interchange was the most impressive mess of highway spaghetti in Canada, despite how dilapidated it had become on account of inadequate maintenance, salting the roads, and the extremely harsh winter climate of Montreal.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

The new Champlain bridge is a spectacular infrastructure, but let's not forget the brand new Turcot exchange, the busiest in Canada

I thought the busiest interchange in Canada was the 401-427 in Toronto.