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  #301  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2022, 3:32 AM
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The plot of half of all western movies is greedy private land barons (often railroads) stealing and forcing the sale of private land in advance of huge land value increases due to upcoming rail stations. It feels wrong that the state of Texas and Texas courts have validated that as legal and proper. They are authorizing private land being forced to sell at what they ultimately know will be a discount so that it can later be sold at huge profits and finance the construction of the railroad.
Most of those western movies were based on fiction, not historic facts.
You also have no idea how the State of Texas handles eminent domain cases.
Local State Districts Courts will determine the fair value for the land being taken if the two parties can not reach an agreement.
Some rich landowners will delay and take their cases to court, but most landowners will settle upon an agreed fair price. And in most cases, the agreed fair price will be based upon what similar lands have been sold at in recent years, just like any other real estate deal.
No land owner will get ripped off, and neither would Texas Central.

The larger rip off in real estate is the government acquiring your land if you fail to pay your taxes, then selling it off to whatever the highest bidder is that day.
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  #302  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2022, 6:07 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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New high speed passenger railroads, including this proposed railroad, and the original multi-purpose railroads aren't the same thing at all.

An industrial spur could be added to a traditional railroad at almost any location. That potential raised the value of nearly all nearby land.

By contrast, there will be no future infill stations or spurs in Texas. Therefore, the new railroad will not raise the value of the land excepting that near the terminal stations and the single planned intermediate station.
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  #303  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 8:13 PM
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New high speed passenger railroads, including this proposed railroad, and the original multi-purpose railroads aren't the same thing at all.

An industrial spur could be added to a traditional railroad at almost any location. That potential raised the value of nearly all nearby land.

By contrast, there will be no future infill stations or spurs in Texas. Therefore, the new railroad will not raise the value of the land excepting that near the terminal stations and the single planned intermediate station.
So? Not building the HSR us not going to raise property values either.
They are building the HSR in rural Texas which has the lowest property values already.
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  #304  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 7:14 PM
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Infill stations can be added later if warranted. Although, I'm not a fan of the Brazos Valley location - I would prefer it be B/CS or nothing at all. While they wouldn't spur off for a warehouse or a smaller town a la freight lines, they can add lines to it for connectivity purposes. Other countries have done this as they've expanded the networks.

I'm still hopeful this one works out. It's painfully slow, but HSR is needed in Texas. Houston and Dallas makes the most sense and I especially hope for the I-35 corridor in the future.
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  #305  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
So? Not building the HSR us not going to raise property values either.
I was responding to the following comment:

Quote:
They are authorizing private land being forced to sell at what they ultimately know will be a discount so that it can later be sold at huge profits and finance the construction of the railroad.
This can only be the case near stations, not along typical parts of the line.
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  #306  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 9:15 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
The larger rip off in real estate is the government acquiring your land if you fail to pay your taxes, then selling it off to whatever the highest bidder is that day.
Yeah, pay the tax. You're getting police and fire protection, plus a court system that ensures a process by which property is bought, sold, owned, and...taxed.

The alternative is everyone having their own army to protect what they "own".
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  #307  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2022, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Yeah, pay the tax. You're getting police and fire protection, plus a court system that ensures a process by which property is bought, sold, owned, and...taxed.

The alternative is everyone having their own army to protect what they "own".

Aren't those freaks out in Idaho working on just that?
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  #308  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2022, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I was responding to the following comment:
This can only be the case near stations, not along typical parts of the line.
It does not matter if it is an urban or rural parcel of land, disputed prices for land are either negotiated between the parties involved, or in a Texas District court with an elected judge determining the fair market value for the parcel of land. Judges, like real estate agents and banks, look at the "comp", latest sale values of comparable properties, in the area to determine the fair market value.
Texas Central, or other eminent domain organizations, cannot force a undervalue sale any more than a local property owner can force a higher value upon Texas Central, etc.

That's the law in Texas and just about everywhere else in the USA. Stop nibbling on the foul bait participants put out for political tomfoolery.
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  #309  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2022, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
It does not matter if it is an urban or rural parcel of land, disputed prices for land are either negotiated between the parties involved, or in a Texas District court with an elected judge determining the fair market value for the parcel of land. Judges, like real estate agents and banks, look at the "comp", latest sale values of comparable properties, in the area to determine the fair market value.
Texas Central, or other eminent domain organizations, cannot force a undervalue sale any more than a local property owner can force a higher value upon Texas Central, etc.

That's the law in Texas and just about everywhere else in the USA. Stop nibbling on the foul bait participants put out for political tomfoolery.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Somebody claimed that there is some sort of buy-low-sell-high switcheroo in the works. There isn't.

The sections of high speed passenger rail through rural areas far from stations do not improve the value of nearby land and arguably damage its value.
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  #310  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2022, 12:11 AM
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Somebody claimed that there is some sort of buy-low-sell-high switcheroo in the works. There isn't.

The sections of high speed passenger rail through rural areas far from stations do not improve the value of nearby land and arguably damage its value.
Why does HSR cause a loss of value if nearby properties? Got any examples or studies stating so? I'm pretty sure cows, hogs, horses, and goats do not care.
Admittingly, higher property values should be located by the stations, two of which (Houston and Dallas) are already in urban areas.
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  #311  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2022, 2:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Why does HSR cause a loss of value if nearby properties? Got any examples or studies stating so? I'm pretty sure cows, hogs, horses, and goats do not care.
Admittingly, higher property values should be located by the stations, two of which (Houston and Dallas) are already in urban areas.
Counter-point to you both:

• 1a. Compared to prices within the same metropolitan area, HSR does not impact prices near stations at all IF that station is urban

Why? Because stations are regional and unlikely to be frequented by any single user specifically, and services are likely to already be concentrated in the area anyway.

• 1b. Land value should be impacted positively when stations are suburban

Why? Nearby parcels then become marketable for more and potentially higher economic use.

• 2. Land value should be negatively impacted in suburban thru-ways.

Why? due to noise.

• 3. Land value should not be impacted in rural thru-ways.

Why? Because of what you just said.
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  #312  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 12:26 AM
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You cannot possibly believe that is what is going on here. This has been turned into an ideological culture war issue just like everything else in this bonkers country. If this was a highway the landowners would be lining up to cooperate and sell with every conservative political figure encouraging them to do so.
In truth I suspect that this project has been illusory from the start with no real way for private investors to recoup their money. If there were a way, it would be in real estate. I live in California so I'm unfamiliar with the culture war that this project has generated and I don't think that I'm part of that. Maybe seeing "ideological culture wars" in every issue is a big part of the problem.

Edit to add that I hope to be proven wrong. High speed rail will be a huge plus for these cities, the state of Texas and even the rest of the US. If Texas can show the rest of the US how to get it done, then that will be a win.
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  #313  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Most of those western movies were based on fiction, not historic facts.
You also have no idea how the State of Texas handles eminent domain cases.
Local State Districts Courts will determine the fair value for the land being taken if the two parties can not reach an agreement.
Some rich landowners will delay and take their cases to court, but most landowners will settle upon an agreed fair price. And in most cases, the agreed fair price will be based upon what similar lands have been sold at in recent years, just like any other real estate deal.
No land owner will get ripped off, and neither would Texas Central.

The larger rip off in real estate is the government acquiring your land if you fail to pay your taxes, then selling it off to whatever the highest bidder is that day.
I actually do know all of that. I disagree that it's an "agreed" price as an owner of property that is being seized by eminent domain has no leverage. If they don't "agree", then what?

My point is that the fair market value of land surrounding stations will increase massively after a station is planned and the "railroad" will have bought the station land and surrounding land on the cheap. I have no concern about the bits through private land that aren't near a station.
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  #314  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 5:20 PM
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Is the title of this thread, Texas On "Fast Track" To High Speed Rail meant to be ironic?
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  #315  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Why does HSR cause a loss of value if nearby properties? Got any examples or studies stating so? I'm pretty sure cows, hogs, horses, and goats do not care.
Well a bunch of ranch owners in California argued for the gigantic 20-mile tunnel that is now being studied between Burbank and Palmdale because, according to them, the trains were going to spook the horses.
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  #316  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 5:52 PM
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^ Most of the crossing was going to be in tunnel anyway... The "longer" tunnel just means fewer daylighting... With the elimination of a handful of aerial segments and bridges the longer tunnel may wing up being cheaper anyway.
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  #317  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 7:02 PM
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Well a bunch of ranch owners in California argued for the gigantic 20-mile tunnel that is now being studied between Burbank and Palmdale because, according to them, the trains were going to spook the horses.
Talk does not make it true.
Those horses would be more likely affected by a pick-up truck full of fodder going 15 mph than by a train going 200 mph, especially if that same truck was used every day to haul the fodder.
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  #318  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Well a bunch of ranch owners in California argued for the gigantic 20-mile tunnel that is now being studied between Burbank and Palmdale because, according to them, the trains were going to spook the horses.
Source?
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  #319  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2022, 12:19 AM
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Source?
Here's an entire report that was commissioned to study HSR's impact on California's equine population

Report: https://transweb.sjsu.edu/sites/defa...ine-issues.pdf
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  #320  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2022, 1:09 AM
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"Some residents of areas near the Palmdale-to-Burbank section of the planned HSR route have voiced concerns that the service would negatively impact their horse populations and riding activities."

So yeah. . . NIMBYs, doing what NIMBYs do.

Anyway, all of the planned Palmdale to Burbank segment options run through the Sierra Pelona and San Gabriel mountain ranges, and will need to be underground in large sections because trains need to stay as level as possible. The tunnels are not about horses.
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