Canadian Vacations

[SignalHillHiker]

Oh yes, sorry... I think of ON/QC as west or, usually, Central. Theirs are great too. Paris, ON (I've never been, but have obsessed over since seeing a few pics here) is gorgeous. Even NS you can get things like Lunenberg, or here in NL American base towns like Stephenville... they have a proper main street. But 2,300 people with blocks and blocks... does not exist here. Closest would be St. Pierre, France. 6K and looks like maybe 1/5 of downtown St. John's. SO urban for a town.

[jamincan]

I had an extended weekend (left Sat, returned Wed) mountain biking at Vallée Bras-du-Nord about 1hr NW of Quebec City. While we were mountain biking, and that seems to be the main focus of the place, they actually have a wide array of outdoor activities there.

The trails were great, but probably the coolest thing for us was that the yurt we were staying in was right on the trails so that we simply hopped on our bikes in the morning and were immediately off riding. Besides that, the scenery was spectacular - huge cliffs and waterfalls and maple forests. I imagine it's beautiful in the fall.

I'm bad at grabbing photos, but I posted a few here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF8dUmy3bG4wSZcv6

[esquire]

Just had an idle thought about Saint John. I visited for the first time last summer and though I was only there for the day, I was really impressed. Picturesque downtown, nice cityscape with the hills and the ocean port, it has a strong sense of place. It's a lovely city.

The interesting thing about it from my perspective is that it does not register on the prairie radar at all. Halifax is a very well known destination, just about anyone I know who has travelled within Canada has been to Halifax. Yet Saint John, which has a lot of the same coastal city charm, is maybe on the same level as Peterborough in terms of obscure places that few people from here visit. Same with attracting residents from here - Halifax is common, Saint John almost unheard of. Why is that? I get the impression that the folks in Saint John could stand to learn from Halifax as to how to market themselves.

[Innsertnamehere]

Saint Johns downtown until very recently had more needles on the sidewalks than people. It's core's gentrification is a very recent phenomenon.

That, and the local economy has been depressed for decades, and it's a heavily industrial city. The downtown is nice but large sections of the city regularly stink (similar to Hamilton) of industrial processes, there are a lot of unsightly industrial uses, and until about 5 years ago basically every middle class person in the metro lived in Rothesay or Quispamsis, not Saint John itself.

Oh, and the city is actually right about the same size as Peterborough. It's small.

I'm cheering the city on now and it has a burgeoning tourism industry now, but I understand why it was "overlooked" for so long as well. And that's coming from someone who has been to Saint John probably 20+ times in my life.

[JHikka]

Saint John has, for a long time, had a miserable reputation throughout the Maritimes as being a dirty industrial city. Its reputation is generally pretty poor, so marketing it as anything else has been difficult. Combine that with a local populace who, until maybe only a decade ago, were fairly defeatist in their local attitude, and you wind up with a city that can be a pretty good hidden gem for those willing to make the trek.

Its reputation has improved in the past decade as growth has returned and industry diversified a bit away from resource-intense industries but there is still that attitude that it's a grimy industrial city, for better or for worse. I've heard Hamilton and Sarnia given as frequent comparisons and I think they're both fair.

SJ has some of the best potential in Canada in developing its urban realm and thankfully there are more locals these days willing to push hard on local, urban issues to develop in the core.

[esquire]

There's no question that the industrial side of things is highly visible in Saint John. It's not Vancouver, there's no question there.

But my first impression of Saint John was very positive, I parked on Canterbury and walked down, past the stately and ornate buildings, to Area 506 which was bustling and lively. There were buskers on Water St. It felt like a little slice of the kind of urbanity you see in Copenhagen.

I was only there for the day but I want to go back and explore it further. My family enjoyed it too.

As dumb as this sounds, we had dinner at Romano's Pizza that evening, and you could see the Irving Tissue paper plant and the Moosehead Brewery out the window. Like I said, there was a strong sense of place, there was no mistaking it for anyplace else

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

The interesting thing about it from my perspective is that it does not register on the prairie radar at all. Halifax is a very well known destination, just about anyone I know who has travelled within Canada has been to Halifax. Yet Saint John, which has a lot of the same coastal city charm, is maybe on the same level as Peterborough in terms of obscure places that few people from here visit. Same with attracting residents from here - Halifax is common, Saint John almost unheard of. Why is that? I get the impression that the folks in Saint John could stand to learn from Halifax as to how to market themselves.

This makes it sound like they're both about the same while Halifax just has better PR. But actually Halifax is larger with more stuff and is more of a general hub and tourism jumping-off point. It's not that far off from Toronto vs. Hamilton.

But I don't disagree that SJ is interesting, has a lot of potential, and had an overly negative reputation for a long time.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

This makes it sound like they're both about the same while Halifax just has better PR. But actually Halifax is larger with more stuff and is more of a general hub and tourism jumping-off point. It's not that far off from a Toronto vs. Hamilton type of situation.

But I don't disagree that SJ is interesting, has a lot of potential, and had an overly negative reputation for a long time.

Yes, for sure, Halifax is without question the bigger city and the major regional hub. But the point is that Saint John has a lot of character and charm as well, it also does a good job of playing the part of "Canadian East Coast city". Yet it doesn't attract nearly as much attention. The Toronto/Hamilton comparison is apt in that regard.

[svlt]

I've only been to NL among the Atlantic provinces so don't mistake opinion for observation (I'm one of those few who has traveled to 7 provinces and 2 territories and yet has not been to Halifax. Not at those flight prices...)

But I don't really understand how Moncton got to be the biggest in the province, Fredericton is the capital, and Saint John has nothing going for it other than being on the coast - which under almost any other circumstance should grant it either Capital or Largest City designations.

For a country with a motto of "a mari usque ad mare", significant geographic challenges aside, we are really short of major coastal cities. Vancouver should grow into its own significant global hub towards the latter half of this century and if I was a Sim Country builder I would have had it as my second largest city.

But then we have Victoria and Halifax, two cities that can't even crack half a million, and following that really small time cities in Saint John and then Nanaimo. All of these cities in my opinion should be much bigger than they are - double their current sizes even if we controlled for the country's population.

I hope Saint John's fortunes swing markedly upwards this century.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yes, for sure, Halifax is without question the bigger city and the major regional hub. But the point is that Saint John has a lot of character and charm as well, it also does a good job of playing the part of "Canadian East Coast city". Yet it doesn't attract nearly as much attention. The Toronto/Hamilton comparison is apt in that regard.

I'd consider Saint John to be more charming, largely because a greater percentage of its built form is historic due to lower rates of modern development. But Halifax has more practical stuff that attract people. Things like more employment, conferences, and education opportunities. And of course more famous landmarks and tourism attractions. When people are attracted to a place for instrumental reasons, the experience of visiting it influences how they, and those they speak to, view it. Including whether they think about it at all. So it might be easy to assume that people visit a city because of how they view it, it can just as easily be that people view a city in a particular way because they, or those around them, visited it. Probably a feedback loop of the two.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by svlt

But I don't really understand how Moncton got to be the biggest in the province, Fredericton is the capital, and Saint John has nothing going for it other than being on the coast - which under almost any other circumstance should grant it either Capital or Largest City designations.

Moncton has a bunch of things going for it. It's the geographic hub of the Maritimes, and anyone traveling by road between NS or PEI and the ROC (including the "RNB") or Maine, or even between NS and PEI (notwithstanding the ferry) basically has to pass through it (or at least very close to it). It also anchors the Acadian-heavy eastern coast of NB and is sort of the "main city" for that region (and really the rest of Franco-NB) despite not being the provincial capital. It also appeals to a lot of suburban-oriented Anglos as an affordable, functional kind of place without all of the baggage of the East Coast's other cities. So it's a sort of magnet city for both Anglos and Francos in New Brunswick. Its economy is fairly dynamic and a lot of national corporations have offices there (including a lot of Quebec-based ones). Culturally it's a bit more "country" than most of the Maritime cities and tends to appeal more to people who might otherwise live somewhere like Miramichi than the other cities do.

Fredericton and Saint John on the other hand are further off the beaten path in terms of how the highway network is designed (and the airport network for that matter), don't really attract Francophones, are dominated by Irving, and have landscapes that are more difficult to build on. They both feel "old" while Moncton feels "new".

[someone123]

I'm not sure what to make about discussions about how big a city "should" be but you can ask how small realistic changes to historical events could have affected how things played out.

For Saint John a lot of things didn't go the right way. I think politics play a role in recent decades since Moncton is more Liberal-aligned and bilingual area while Saint John was perceived or was a Con/PC stronghold. Saint John got its VIA service cut and they just don't get as many goodies.

Saint John also got hurt a lot by where the border ended up. There are many possible outcomes here but at one point in time the region was one province (Nova Scotia) and the border went to the Penobscot (Bangor). In some variant of that configuration Saint John wouldn't have a border with a dead zone right next to it and actually it is due east of Montreal (under 600 km). It might be the most screwed over by borders city in Canada with the Maritimes being the most screwed over region as a whole. The de facto "isolation" of Saint John in Canada could be hugely different with a different border.

This could become a novel but I do think in the past coastal development in Canada was discouraged because it wasn't a priority for the main political power base in the interior. As an illustration, for a while around the early 1900's Portland ME was the winter port for some Canadian rail traffic. The US was heavily protectionist with the Jones Act etc. and would not allow Vancouver or Halifax to handle American cargo. Another example is how offshore development was federally controlled and basically just didn't happen in Canada until many decades after it happened in other developed nations.

[urbandreamer]

Has anyone driven to Alaska?

[Denscity]

Yes but just Hyder.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Has anyone driven to Alaska?

I haven't but a good friend of mine and his ex drove from Edmonton to Whitehorse, and from there he drove on to visit Skagway. I received multiple pictures throughout the trip and it seemed very interesting. The eeriest parts seemed to be in Northern BC at night where you could see the glow on the horizon from various oil (I assume?) operations all around. Very sinister vibes.

[Innsertnamehere]

Reminds me of Hamilton / Kitchener in a way. When people think of “a nice midsized city on the edge of the GTA” to move or visit, everyone defaults to Kitchener. It’s fast growing, full of universities and good employment, and attractive neighbourhoods. Yet Hamilton is closer to the GTA, has more cultural facilities, superior urban fabric by a country mile, lots more historic buildings, arguably far better access to nature, is on a Great Lake, is notably warmer, etc, and gets basically ignored because of the rough and tumble reputation. There are a ton of equivalents between Hamilton and Saint John, and Halifax reminds me of Kitchener in many ways as well.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Reminds me of Hamilton / Kitchener in a way. When people think of “a nice midsized city on the edge of the GTA” to move or visit, everyone defaults to Kitchener. It’s fast growing, full of universities and good employment, and attractive neighbourhoods. Yet Hamilton is closer to the GTA, has more cultural facilities, superior urban fabric by a country mile, lots more historic buildings, arguably far better access to nature, is on a Great Lake, is notably warmer, etc, and gets basically ignored because of the rough and tumble reputation. There are a ton of equivalents between Hamilton and Saint John, and Halifax reminds me of Kitchener in many ways as well.

You really think Kitchener is the default that comes to mind? I definitely don't think that's true. As much as I love Kitchener, I've always felt it's a pretty hard sell to most Torontonians, while Hamilton is better known to them and has a more urban reputation.

[Nouvellecosse]

That would be a good comparison for Saint John and Moncton. I don't see a similarity between Halifax and Kitchener though. When I say Saint John is more beautiful or charismatic than Halifax, the difference isn't in the "country mile" range. And not to be harsh to Saint John, but that's currently the only real advantage it has, other than lower housing costs.

[SignalHillHiker]

Just booked my first international vacation since the pandemic. Two weeks with friends in Malaga (Torremolinos), Spain. Horrible, overpriced Air Canada flights more than double the length they need to be (St. John's - Toronto - Dublin and reverse return). But, as usual, once I'm in Europe, it's pocket change to get anywhere and, bizarrely, Aer Lingus beat Ryan Air from Dublin to Malaga in timing, and tied on price. It's going to be my first time (as far as I recall) flying Aer Lingus, which I'm, of course, excited to check out.

Also, my parents are in Toronto right now on their way back from New Orleans. I think this is their first visit to the States since the pandemic. They had a grand time. Wouldn't be me. I don't think I'll ever set foot in the United States again, oddly. Just... zero interest, and feels so risky.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Just booked my first international vacation since the pandemic. Two weeks with friends in Malaga (Torremolinos), Spain.

Spain is a gorgeous place. Toured a few cities from late Dec 2019 into January 2020.

I have not been in Malaga, but it's not far from Granada and I highly recommend going there for a day trip (or a couple of days). Beautiful city, and a tour of Alhambra is a must if you go.

Seville was quite interesting too, a bit farther from Malaga but probably do-able.

We were interested in visiting Gibraltar but it didn't fit the itinerary.

I hope you have a terrific time!