George Massey Tunnel Replacement | Proposed

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by bardak

They seemed to have made decent bus stations on highway 99 but it is hard to tell how you are supposed to get to the station on a connecting bus from 17a or River road.

Are those bus stops on the overpass between the roundabouts?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Are those bus stops on the overpass between the roundabouts?

From what I am aware, there will be bus stops on the overpasses, and then stairs and elevators on either side dropping down to the highway level.

It's a fantastic design, and I know they are planning to do a much better job in providing infrastructure for transit, cyclists, and pedestrians compared to the Port Mann / Highway 1 project.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

From what I am aware, there will be bus stops on the overpasses, and then stairs and elevators on either side dropping down to the highway level.

It's a fantastic design, and I know they are planning to do a much better job in providing infrastructure for transit, cyclists, and pedestrians compared to the Port Mann / Highway 1 project.

Planning is fine, but those are the first things that'll be cut when budgetary constraints come along.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Planning is fine, but those are the first things that'll be cut when budgetary constraints come along.

Not true, many things were cut from the original highway 1 design and none of them were the bus . transit . HOV infrastructure. The only thing that was not clear was the bus itself. Also the Surrey bus exchange was suppose to be made alongside another development that never happened. (does the 555 stop in Surrey now?) Either way the ramps were still built.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Not true, many things were cut from the original highway 1 design and none of them were the bus . transit . HOV infrastructure. The only thing that was not clear was the bus itself. Also the Surrey bus exchange was suppose to be made alongside another development that never happened. (does the 555 stop in Surrey now?) Either way the ramps were still built.

The original design had provisions for future rail over the PMB didn't it? I recall that being cut early.

On the bus issue, the province was being fairly cheeky saying buses would finally flow over the PMB again, but without any funding or planning support.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Not true, many things were cut from the original highway 1 design and none of them were the bus . transit . HOV infrastructure. The only thing that was not clear was the bus itself. Also the Surrey bus exchange was suppose to be made alongside another development that never happened. (does the 555 stop in Surrey now?) Either way the ramps were still built.

Yes, Surrey actually constructed ramps on 156 Street and on the on-ramps in both directions.

Actually very well used as well. I come through there quite often and have seen upwards of 20 people get on and off the #555 at that point. Usually to/from Lougheed rather than to/from Carvolth.

[xd_1771]

I gotta admit, this design raises my eyebrows. While many of the people coming to today's meeting will be transit advocates complaining about the road-centric nature of the project, the transit improvements being brought through this project are central to the design and commendable - and the mistake that was made with the missing (and big hit) 555 stop in Surrey will most certainly be avoided. The improved access to Bridgeport Station will make for a considerable improvement in bus travel times. The bus stations and crossover design are common and remind me of what's in place along I-35 in Minneapolis.

I just really hope that leftmost lane isn't going to shortmerge onto the through traffic lanes like that in the final design. If those are HOV lanes, that'll come with major delays to buses at their Bridgeport access exit (since the queues will block the exit), potentially negating any of the travel time savings. (Less of a problem if it's a bus lane, but there aren't any northbound buses continuing north on the OSB right now...)

The one thing that still gets to me is the scale of the project. They want to have 5 lanes + HOV going southbound on the approach to the bridge.... it feels like we're trying to recreate Los Angeles (that Steveston interchange may be compact but it's still a full stack!) If this project is supposed to come with significant transit improvements, then you really don't need to have that many lanes at such a high cost... and with the new lanes dropping just before the highway enters Surrey, it seems the project has more of a Ladner/commuter focus than that on the highway corridor as a whole. I'd have liked to see 6 lanes coming from at least 152 St/32 Ave.

There is a best-of-all-worlds alternative that can bring forth a bridge or tunnel replacement with more modest/consistent lane counts, more focus on transit improvements and far more modest costs. I think we should take a look at it.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

Not sure if anyone has posted this before - I just came across it. It shows the full alignment, with all the lane configurations.

http://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel...t-Dec-2015.pdf

It's obviously still preliminary, so don't get too excited about one thing or another because everything is subject to change. I noticed a couple bizarre sections (or maybe I'm just tired?), but I won't get into it because it's getting late. Cheers!

Oh also, the bus station designs are more like the ones in Los Angeles - bit of a bummer there. If anyone is going to the open house, please comment on the need for higher quality bus stations!

Nice find! Thanks!

Note the criss-cross at the bus stations to get the boarding door on the platform side.
I would expect there would be pedestrian access to the bus stations that just isn't shown on those diagrams.

[urbancanadian]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Nice find! Thanks!

Note the criss-cross at the bus stations to get the boarding door on the platform side.
I would expect there would be pedestrian access to the bus stations that just isn't shown on those diagrams.

No problemo. The criss-cross is fine, it's similar to what they have in LA on the Harbor Freeway, for example. But from experience they are not very pleasant places to wait for a bus. I'd like to see a semi-enclosed platform (ie. glass walls and a roof). Then at least it's not so noisy and uncomfortable. That's what I mean by higher quality.

[Infrequent Poster]

I think I counted a 17 lane cross section at the south end of the new bridge. This includes lanes from the on and off ramps and the bus lanes in the middle.

[urbancanadian]

Here are a few of the things that I noticed with the alignments:

First (in blue), there are stop lines* at each end of the bus-only ramps at Bridgeport Road. I'm wondering if this is because the ramp is only one lane wide, so the buses need to stop to make sure no one else is on the ramp before proceeding? Probably a budgetary measure, but I don't have a problem with it. When the Oak Street Bridge is eventually rebuilt, I imagine the ramps will be rebuilt so that they slope downward as the bridge rises, to connect directly with Van Horne Way.

Second (in red), at the same location, I don't like how Bridgeport Road merges onto the highway at the same point that the HOV lane ends. Seems like that will cause traffic to slow a lot.



On this one, I really think they need to replace the Cambie Road overpass. They cheaped out and it really shows. You can't fit more than two lanes through each set of pillars so the highway is broken up similar to what they did at 192 Street on Highway 1. Except there, the HOV lanes briefly split off, but here it's all over the place. I tried to make it easy to see on this map, but it didn't turn out so well. Anyway... Red = HOV lanes; Blue = GP lanes; Yellow = Aux. lanes. What a mess!



Gotta go for dinner -- more to come...

[cornholio]

Something missing is bus lane exits/entrances at the highway 17 interchange for buses heading to Ladner and the Delta industrial lands. Something like this would allow ALL buses crossing the bridge (heading north and south) to utilize this hub BRT stop and allow transfers between ALL buses. This is assuming some busses will exit at Bridgeport, some at 17av etc.


As for the Stevston interchange the BRT stop should shift north to allow a future entrance/exit from the media if congestion requires it. That would also mean leaving some room in the center median. The south bound onramp might be tough though due to having to make up the lost elevation when merging back.

[Infrequent Poster]

I cant figure out how they are going to squeeze eight lanes under the sfpr overpass. They might be able to just squeeze 4 lanes north bound (with no shoulder on either side) if they are lucky.

But there is no chance at all they can do 4 lanes south bound, They have enough room to just squeeze 3 lanes in. Pretty sure those plans show three gp lanes and a hov lane in both directions.

Unless they are planning on modifying the brand new overpass. Which would seem beyond stupid......

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

I cant figure out how they are going to squeeze eight lanes under the sfpr overpass. They might be able to just squeeze 4 lanes north bound (with no shoulder on either side) if they are lucky.

But there is no chance at all they can do 4 lanes south bound, They have enough room to just squeeze 3 lanes in. Pretty sure those plans show three gp lanes and a hov lane in both directions.

Unless they are planning on modifying the brand new overpass. Which would seem beyond stupid......

It looks like the each side can fit about 15.5m. That should accommodate 4x 3.5m lanes. Not much of a shoulder though.

[makr3trkr]

http://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel...t-Dec-2015.pdf (page 11)

Google Earth



They are showing two regular sized shoulders, an HOV lane, three general purpose lanes, and a merge lane, all on the southbound side of the farm overpass.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

No problemo. The criss-cross is fine, it's similar to what they have in LA on the Harbor Freeway, for example. But from experience they are not very pleasant places to wait for a bus. I'd like to see a semi-enclosed platform (ie. glass walls and a roof). Then at least it's not so noisy and uncomfortable. That's what I mean by higher quality.

That'll come with consultation.
This is just a draft concept (i.e. like a "reference" concept before the RFP issued).

Agreed that the Bridgeport HOV merge should be a bit farther south (closer to where the bus ramp branches off).
I wonder about the bus ramp stop signs/lights. If the ramp is arched, would buses be able to see each other?
I think the stops are also due to the sharp curves on the ramp (i.e. zigzag creates a shorter bridge).
I would prefer to see the bus ramp moved a bit north - so it crosses fewer lanes, and you could have a column free span (although it would require a longer span).
The current plan probably has a column between the merge lane and the highway - which could create a blindspot for traffic merging in.

*********

Other comments:

I don't see any ramps to Rice Mill Road.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Other comments:

I don't see any ramps to Rice Mill Road.

I think I found it - there are 2 ramps at Steveston Interchange that disappear -
I think they travel under the north bridge approach to Rice Mill Road.
So there's only access to and from Hwy 99 north (not to the bridge deck).

I've marked them in red on this excerpt:

[

[officedweller]

Anyone else think it's a bit odd that the onramp flyover from Hwy 17A (Ladner) become the fast lane on the bridge?
That would prevent a express/collector lane system on the bridge in future.
i.e. in comparison, the onramp from 152nd to Port Mann Bridge drops vehicles towards the outer lanes (though it splits).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dleung

Building a 10-lane bridge will lock the region into auto dependency for the foreseeable future and discourage any transit-oriented development. It's not unreasonable to want all new growth in the region to be transit oriented.

Suburban living is heavily subsidized. Gas should be priced an extra 23c per liter to offset all emissions, PLUS a portion of the maintenance and lease on billions of square feet worth of roads that occupy otherwise-valuable real-estate.

What I want for the region in the long-term is for the kind of density that can support this network below. In this case, traffic for the Massey tunnel will eventually decrease, just like for each of the bridges crossing False Creek.



I can accept building a new 4-lane bridge to supplement the Massey tunnel. By the time the tunnel needs to close, we won't need more than 4 lanes for the mostly-truck traffic because by then everyone else will be living in midrises near transit, in 1500sf+ apartments with planted terraces, and they will be affordable because most of the metro is zoned for it, with an abundance of developable lots no more expensive than if zoned for SFH. The new Vancouver Special would be a 6-storey 12-plex built over two 33' lots. The ~$2M land cost would be barely $150K per household...

Never hurt to dream...

It makes no sense to retain the seismic deathrap that is the tunnel.

As to the density dreaming, I would have thought you would realize that most people move to Vancouver not to recreate Hong Kong or New York, but to escape it.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

On this one, I really think they need to replace the Cambie Road overpass. They cheaped out and it really shows. You can't fit more than two lanes through each set of pillars so the highway is broken up

I suspect that north of the Hwy 99/Hwy 91 interchange will comprise the "new" Oak Street Bridge AND approaches whenever that gets built, which will include a Cambie Road overpass replacement.

A new Oak Street Bridge would face major logistical challenges in terms of construction. Perhaps half bridge built on the eastern side and when the old OSB is torn down the remaining bridge structure completed. I suspect a 1 HOV/2 GP cross-section in each direction plus an additional add-on/drop-off lane in each direction (eg. Bridgeport Road on-ramp to Marine Drive off-ramp auxiliary lane.)

Of course, I am getting wayyyyy beyond the subject matter here.

BTW, excellent find in terms of cross-sections. Have been waiting for same!