Clappisons Corner

[coalminecanary]

The province is going to put highway 5 OVER highway 6 and put a cloverleaf there. The public info sessions are underway.

5 years ago the projected cost for this project was 75 million.

Today I'm guessing it's more - 85 or 90? They won't say because it "may affect the bid process". By the time the dust settles it is possible we'll spend 100,000,000 dollars on this crap-show.

The city is pitching in 25% of the costs on this project.

That's 18,750,000 minimum - probably 25 million in the end.

This is to service some new sprawl housing plus the retail there. Highway 5 will still (and will forevermore) bottleneck in waterdown. Highway 6 will continue to bottleneck in puslinch - so this isn't about throughput on those roads for goods transport to the 400 series highways. This is pure sprawl development.

And the city bitches about 650 grand for a downtown grocery store?

[Jon Dalton]

They need to do that because public transit is too expensive / unfeasible.

[matt602]

$18 Mil? What the hell? Why the hell is the city on the hook for that? Where the hell is Lloyd Ferguson complaining about fiscal responsibility?

[mattgrande]

Highway 5 over Highway 6? That sounds like an awful idea...

[bigguy1231]

It's the next step to eventually turn Hwy 6 into a divided highway all the way to Guelph.

They are already doing the studies to by pass Puslinch.

[coalminecanary]

Also, the traffic study I read already talks about a future parkside drive bypass around Waterdown as if it's already built

Can I ask why that bypass is needed when the 403 is 30 seconds away from clappisons? Like waterdown needs a ring highway system all of a sudden?

This city is high on sprawl and it's going to be a terribly painful withdrawal when the money really dries up.

We might think this stuff is only slightly unaffordable now but let's see what this city looks like when we are trying to maintain it all off of half the population. At this rate, that's where we're headed.

[mattgrande]

I don't go up there that often, but does it get really busy? Are they expecting a huge influx of people? I just don't get it...

[flar]

It gets very busy up there.

This is more about having a highway link between Guelph/KW and Hamilton than servicing sprawl. Hwy 6 will eventually be upgraded to full freeway and head west to connect to the Hanlon Pkwy in Guelph, bypassing Morriston. Hwy 6 is currently very unsafe, some people call it the death highway.

[coalminecanary]

Actually the report specifically calls out residential and retail development surrounding 5/6 as a major driver for future traffic.

If this is about better access to the 401 and beyond, the problem is there's no official plan for what to do at Puslinch. The word from the province is "they will continue to monitor it".

Increasing throughput at clappison's is not going to make the highway any safer unless they have a plan for these bottlenecks. And if they do have a plan, these should be addressed first and THEN we can see how clappison's holds up.

This is an exercise in inducing demand - if we make the highway fast, smooth and separated then more people will want to use it and the case for expansion and expropriation grows stronger.

If we want to improve the links to Guelph etc then we should be building new rail and subsidizing buses instead of spending 100 million on an intersection where nobody waits more than one light cycle even at the height of rush hour. There used to be direct buses from mcmaster but iirc they stopped running them a few years ago.

[bigguy1231]

It's already a very busy highway, thats the reason for the work. They don't need to generate traffic.

[mishap]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

It's already a very busy highway, thats the reason for the work. They don't need to generate traffic.

Apparently, it is the busiest King's Highway intersection in Ontario. That honour previously belonged to 406/58/20 in Thorold, but that was upgraded to an interchange in the last few years.

[Jon Dalton]

Highway 6 is dangerous. I remember almost eating shit there years ago when someone pulled out of one of the businesses in front of me while I was going 80. Too many driveways for a road that's 80km/hr. of course another solution would be controlled access to the businesses that line it. That would have to be cheaper than full on grade separation. And whatever the solution, it's pure foolishness not to include transit. These are two university towns after all. Congestion on a highway with zero transit alternative is a self fulfilling prophecy.

[markbarbera]

While one would think the two universities would allow for a successful transit link between Hamilton and Guelph, actual experience seems to show little demand for transit along the route. Grey Coach stopped its Hamilton-Guelph route back in 2009 because it was averaging 11 passengers a trip, and they were only doing five round trips back then. I understand Aboutown now offers a Hamilton-Guelph Northlink run but they are doing just two trips daily.

[Millstone]

This is a provincial matter, so it's important to keep it in context. The intersection is beyond capacity, as is the entirety of Hwy 6 from Hwy 5 to Hwy 401.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by Millstone

This is a provincial matter, so it's important to keep it in context. The intersection is beyond capacity, as is the entirety of Hwy 6 from Hwy 5 to Hwy 401.

So much for Places To Grow, and increasing urban density.

Another example of how costly suburban sprawl can be.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk

So much for Places To Grow, and increasing urban density.

Another example of how costly suburban sprawl can be.

This is a provincial highway and serves provincial traffic. Like going from Niagara to Waterloo.

[coalminecanary]

Fine but why are we paying for it? Another form of downloading.

Read the documents, the major driver for this intersection is local development and you can bet those developers aren't picking up the tab.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Fine but why are we paying for it? Another form of downloading.

Read the documents, the major driver for this intersection is local development and you can bet those developers aren't picking up the tab.

But they are paying for it through their taxes. They probably pay at least 4 or 5 million a year for a development that big.

I just read something about the new Lowes development they want to build in Ancaster. It's 300,000 sf and they will be paying $1.8 million per year. The developments at Clappison's are a couple of million square feet.

[coalminecanary]

I'd like to see a full breakdown of development charges and tax revenue versus infrastructure building costs and maintenance costs. If this equation were in the black we would not be in such financial dire straits in this city. It's most certainly in the red, but I don't have the resources to study it in depth. The city does have the resources but chooses not to bother - the true costs of infrastructure and future costs are dissociated from the developments. All they see is the immediate benefit of taxes. It's like logging into your banking and only looking at the credit column. Boy all those paycheques sure look nice! WHo cares about that pesky debit column!

[c@taract_soulj@h]

This is why they need that damn overpass...what's wrong with this picture?


530991_10151174920339671_657917827_n by sens_31, on Flickr

Also...how about an interchange to the Tim Hortons/Wendys since I lay on my horn as ppl think it's legal to make a u-turn as I drive to work