What are the coldest MAJOR cities in the world?

[Dalton]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

if you factor in wind chill I wouldn't be surprised if Winnipeg's temp dropped to -40.

I had to spend a couple days in Winnipeg in February of 1996, when even they were setting record low temperatures. I believe the high temp one day was -40 degrees - NOT including wind chill. It was the most horrific experience (weatherwise) I have ever had. I had to drive to a little town through this national park and I didn't come across a single car for over an hour. I remember thinking that if my car stalled out I would have been dead in less than an hour.

I don't care about population limitations. Manitoba has the worst winter weather this side of Siberia. You'd have to be insane to live there.

[leftopolis]

No doubt if the criteria were knocked down to a large city(of perhaps 1 million) as opposed to "MAJOR"--the list would be even more impressive. Ulan-Bator, Mongolia would qualify @ -22c(average Jan. low of -27c).

[harls]

Originally Posted by Dalton

I had to spend a couple days in Winnipeg in February of 1996, when even they were setting record low temperatures. I believe the high temp one day was -40 degrees - NOT including wind chill. It was the most horrific experience (weatherwise) I have ever had. I had to drive to a little town through this national park and I didn't come across a single car for over an hour. I remember thinking that if my car stalled out I would have been dead in less than an hour.

I don't care about population limitations. Manitoba has the worst winter weather this side of Siberia. You'd have to be insane to live there.

I was living in Winnipeg at the time of that deep freeze. For 30 straight days it never got above -20 C. I never left my apartment, and almost went insane, but it was awesome.

[Rail Claimore]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

well, anchorage is on the coast and benefits from the ocean's moderating waters. inland fairbanks is much, MUCH colder than anchorage. in fact anchorage is only about as cold as minneapolis or moscow in january, on average.

but no, neither are major cities by my definition.

Interestingly enough, it's inland location makes it a lot warmer in the summer too. Alaska's record high of 100F was recorded there, IIRC.

[staff]

Originally Posted by leftopolis

No doubt if the criteria were knocked down to a large city(of perhaps 1 million) as opposed to "MAJOR"--the list would be even more impressive. Ulan-Bator, Mongolia would qualify @ -22c(average Jan. low of -27c).

One of the days I spent in Ulaan Bataar two years ago the temperature reached -47 degrees Celsius. That's pretty cold.

[Canadian Mind]

Wasn't there a point in time just this January that the high was -40 in Winnipeg?

Also, I really don't mind cold. I've been through enough of it already to know that below -40, it doesn't really make a difference as far as how cold you feel, you just get frostbite faster.

[MolsonExport]

I thought that it was Ulan Bator (Mongolia) and Winnipeg (Canada) for the coldest major cities in the world, along with Irkustk (Siberia).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by leftopolis

No doubt if the criteria were knocked down to a large city(of perhaps 1 million) as opposed to "MAJOR"--the list would be even more impressive.

obviously if i hadn't set the cut-off at 3 million people, more cities could be included. some of the reasoning behind my cut-off is that i was actually only interested in very cold cities that had somehow thwarted the odds and grown to a very large size in spite of their harsh winters. of this group of cities, Harbin, China is certainly the most impressive. they have managed to build a metropolis of nearly 10 million people in a place that experiences average january highs of -13 C/8 F. if i opened the list up to smaller cities, that would be fine, but eventually we could just keep finding smaller and colder human settlements until we ended up at the amundsen-scott science base down at the south pole. 3 million people seemed like a nice round number to separate major cities from merely large cities. as with all cut-offs, it's arbitrary, but it allowed me to get the info i wanted.

being a native chicagoan, i had always been impressed by the fact that we were able to become such a large city in spite of our cold winter weather, but it turns out that chicago's winters really ain't all that impressive compared to a frozen metropolis like Harbin. chicago's winters are still colder than most others of course, but my conventional wisdom of it having just about the worst winter weather in the world for a major city has been thrown right out the window. on average, chicago's winters are only marginally colder than boston's.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

of this group of cities, Harbin, China is certainly the most impressive. they have managed to build a metropolis of nearly 10 million people in a place that experiences average january highs of -13 C/8 F.

being a native chicagoan, i had always been impressed by the fact that we were able to become such a large city in spite of our cold winter weather, but it turns out that chicago's winters really ain't all that impressive compared to a frozen metropolis like Harbin.

Well, Harbin is also in an intensely overpopulated country with a state planned economy that, for the latter half of the 20th century, dictated that the northeast region of the country was to be the industry heartland. Harbin, Shenyang, and other cities in the northeast are China's Rust Belt. It was also a Russian city once, and the tsars encouraged settlement through various means, so it hasn't grown that large solely through free market economics and personal choice.

Also, it's not a city of 10 million, really. Chinese municipalities are really more like counties (the English ones not the smaller American ones). By the same definition, Chongqing has a population of about 35 million - it's a big city but not bigger than Tokyo. The actual metropolitan population of Harbin is about 5 million, so it's closer to Minneapolis than Chicago.

[Steely Dan]

^ thanks for the info. well, i guess a metropolis of 5 million people that averages -13 C/8 F in january is still damn impressive. i realize that chinese cities don't germinate and grow solely through free-market dynamics, but the fact that 5 million people live in a city that gets that cold is still amazing to me regardless of how they got there. harbin has just skyrocketed to the top of my list of "places that i know jack shit about that i am now instantly fascinated with".10023, you seem somewhat knowledge about the place so please feel free to drop some more harbin science on me.

also, thanks for mentioning Shenyang. that's another northeast china city that qualifies for the list with around 5 million people and an average january high of -6 C/22 F, which places it with the likes of moscow, montreal and minneapolis.

[Sirus]

Interesting tid bit:

Harbin and Minneapolis are sister cities.

[vanman]

Originally Posted by TheMeltyMan

Montreal is warm as hell in the winter. The metro overcompensates with heat in a lot of the metros and I find myself sweating balls in the winter more often than I do in the warmer months.

I know what you mean. I was there recently and whenever I had to use the Metro I would melt. I wish transit systems would realize that people coming out of the cold are going to be bundled up, and for that reason they should only heat trains/ transit stations/buses 10-15c at most.

[staff]

Originally Posted by 10023

Chinese municipalities are really more like counties (the English ones not the smaller American ones). By the same definition, Chongqing has a population of about 35 million - it's a big city but not bigger than Tokyo. The actual metropolitan population of Harbin is about 5 million, so it's closer to Minneapolis than Chicago.

You're confusing provincial-level municipalities with sub-provincial municipalities. There are only four provincial-level municipalities in China, Beijing, Chongqing, Shanghai and Tianjin, and they are indeed huge.
Sub-provincial municipalities on the other hand vary in area size, and some are really big while some are the size of any given city proper in Europe - ie. there is no 'standard' in how a large a sub-provincial municipality is.

The urban agglomeration of Harbin has an official population of around 5 million inhabitants, whereas the whole municipality (huge in size) has approx. double that of the urban area.
There are no official definitions of metropolitan areas in China, nor are the official population numbers anywhere near accurate due to mass-immigration of people that don't register, from rural areas.
I'd say that Harbin's metropolitan population, or rather "actual population", is somewhere between 7 and 10 million, and probably comparable to, or slightly lower than the metropolitan population of Chicago.

Chinese city populations are wildly underestimated.


As for population growth - the earlier growth of Harbin had indeed a lot to do with central government planning during the communist era of China - although, all growth the last 20 or so year and future growth is solely "market based" so to speak.

[10023]

Originally Posted by staff

The urban agglomeration of Harbin has an official population of around 5 million inhabitants, whereas the whole municipality (huge in size) has approx. double that of the urban area.

Irrespective of the peculiarities of Chinese local government, isn't this exactly what I said? The urban agglomeration is what is comparable between countries - figures based on local government administration are not.

What difference exactly are you assuming between "urban agglomeration" and "metropolitan area"?

Or are you again just claiming that whatever reported / official numbers that exist are wrong and pulling a new number that you like better out of a hat? I detect a trend.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

also, thanks for mentioning Shenyang. that's another northeast china city that qualifies for the list with around 5 million people and an average january high of -6 C/22 F, which places it with the likes of moscow, montreal and minneapolis.

You should know Shenyang - it's Chicago's sister city in China.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by 10023

Or are you again just claiming that whatever reported / official numbers that exist are wrong and pulling a new number that you like better out of a hat? I detect a trend.

there's absolutely no reason for you two to have another one of your spats in this thread. if you want to go by the official urban agglomeration number of ~5 million for harbin, that's great. if staff believes that that actual population of the place might be higher due to inconsistencies in chinese population tabulations and definitions, that's great too.

in the end it won't matter for this thread because either way harbin qualifies as a major city by my definition, and it is so far the coldest such city on the planet by a fair margin.

Originally Posted by 10023

You should know Shenyang - it's Chicago's sister city in China.

yeah, i've heard of shenyang before, but i honestly can't say i know anything substantive about the place other than it is chicago's sister city in china. oddly, wikipedia also lists shanghai as a sister city to chicago.

[antinimby]

Originally Posted by Dalton

II believe the high temp one day was -40 degrees - NOT including wind chill.

I can't even imagine how the hell that would feel. By the way, how did it feel?

Steely Dan, how come you didn't use average temperature instead of the average high temp.?

I think that would be better because it also takes into account the low. It penalizes or helps (depending on how you look at it) those who's lows don't dip as much as some others do.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by antinimby

Steely Dan, how come you didn't use average temperature instead of the average high temp.?

because low temps almost always occur in the middle of the night when most folks are asleep in their warm cozy beds. the average daily high temp more closely reflects what a person has to encounter when they're out and about during their day-time activities.

if you want to compile a different list of these cities with their average overall january temperatures, that's cool, though i suspect the list wouldn't change all that drastically anyway.

[staff]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there's absolutely no reason for you two to have another one of your spats in this thread.

I absolutely agree. I simply think that a correction should be made where it's appropriate, ie. when someone makes a wrongfully statement.

10023,
You're welcome to send me a PM if you want to further discuss Chinese cities, the distinction between urban areas and metropolitan areas, or if you just want to write a load of bullshit so people don't have to read that on the public forums.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by vanman

I know what you mean. I was there recently and whenever I had to use the Metro I would melt. I wish transit systems would realize that people coming out of the cold are going to be bundled up, and for that reason they should only heat trains/ transit stations/buses 10-15c at most.

I imagine there'd be a lot of office workers taking the metro from one place to the next without ever stepping outside. I did that fairly often when I worked in downtown Toronto.