HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > General Discussion


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #221  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2020, 2:02 AM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is offline
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 12,293
Suburban sprawl — Is it a COVID-19 super-spreader?
When it comes to health, density is not the enemy. But the pandemic has important lessons for city planners across Canada

Charles Montgomery
Special to National Post

June 15, 2020, 5:33 PM EDT


The COVID-19 pandemic has reignited a debate that has been smouldering amongst city planners for a century: Are some kinds of neighbourhoods inherently healthier than others?

When the coronavirus hammered New York this spring, it seemed obvious to everyone that the city was super-dangerous because it’s super-dense. Observers blamed the city’s subways and Manhattan’s forest of apartment towers. Even Governor Andrew Cuomo, cited “all that density” for the city’s virus woes. Wealthy residents fled to country houses. Pundits declared the age of vertical cities over.

The problem with this collective gut reaction is that it isn’t based on facts. The virus did not hit Manhattan the hardest. Not even close. Looking at a map of viral spread in New York in mid-April is like looking at a photo negative of urban density: the heat of infection glows not in the subway-tangled heart of the city, but out in more spacious, car-dependent neighbourhoods.

“Neighbourhoods at the core of the city had a lower rate of infection,” says Salim Furth, a senior research fellow at the Mercator Center in Arlington, Va. “And through the first two weeks of April, that gap between the core and the periphery actually grew rather than shrank.”

When Furth compared coronavirus infection data with commute modes (the way people travel to work) across zip codes, he stumbled on another surprise: The more a neighbourhood depended on cars, the higher its viral infection rate.

Why would car-dependent neighbourhoods show faster viral spread? Nobody knows the answer yet.

But Furth speculates that it could be because, while nervous subway users were staying in their own neighbourhoods, people in sprawl kept on driving. They had no choice: their grocery stores and pharmacies and services were all miles away. Every suburban big box or shopping plaza became a nexus of interactions between hundreds or thousands of people. Furth acknowledges that correlation is not the same as causation.

Epidemiologists are still sifting through a mountain of risk factors. But viral spread is increasingly being linked to crowding inside dwellings, and occupations that put workers in close contact with many other people — conditions more associated with poverty than density. When Toronto finally released a map showing viral rates across the city at the end of May, poor neighbourhoods on the fringes were much harder hit than the dense and affluent downtown core. Around the world, the densest cities— places like Seoul and Singapore— have been among the most successful at countering the virus.

That’s not proof that urban sprawl patterns actually causes viral spread. But it does raise the question: How would we design neighbourhoods if our goal was to keep people from getting sick?

Before COVID-19, Ebola was arguably the most fear-inducing pandemic in recent memory. When the virus ripped through Western Africa in 2014, governments attempted widespread contact tracing. But in cities it was hard to track down sick people’s contacts before the newly infected went on to infect yet more people. There were more than 11,000 deaths before Ebola was suppressed in 2015.

That led data scientists to search for a better way to contain pandemics. Using computer simulations of viral spread, a team at the New England Complex Science Institute found that Ebola could be stopped if authorities monitored infection on a community level, then limited travel from infected areas: If people with the virus were kept from travelling between neighbourhoods, outbreaks would be shorter and enable health authorities to focus their efforts.

The approach would also limit the amount of time people in any community spent in lockdown, says Institute director Yaneer Bar-Yam.

“The right way to do isolation is to do it quickly,” Bar-Yam tells me. “We want to have the ability to isolate over short periods of time and use that short time to help people get over the disease and get back to normal.”

We’ve all learned how difficult extended periods of lockdown can be. They ravage our local economies and our mental health, especially people who live alone. They can be dangerous for workers who commute on transit. So what if we could design communities that are more self-sufficient, enabling short, spot-lockdowns only when needed?

It turns out we’ve already got thousands of these places—built when neighbourhoods were designed around streetcars, rather than cars. Places like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive, or Edmonton’s Strathcona, or Toronto’s Danforth, allow residents to meet most of their daily needs within a short walk. It’s easier to stay close to home when you can walk to school, to the grocery store, the community centre, your church, your masjid or skate park.

Bar-Yam isn’t crazy about the idea of designing cities to facilitate lockdowns. After all, if community isolation works, then local lockdowns could be limited to a tolerable two weeks. And pandemic-proofing may not actually be the most important consideration for neighbourhood design, if the goal is to keep people healthy in the long run.

As I describe in my book, Happy City, people in car-dependent communities die three to five years sooner than those who live in walkable, connected neighbourhoods. Research in Metro Vancouver has shown that health care costs associated with heart disease are 50 per cent higher for people living in car-dependent places. Poor families also have less money for basics like healthy food when they are forced to drive everywhere.

All of this is why public health officials have been begging cities to adopt more walkable community designs. But pandemic preparedness, community design and public health do intersect: People who live in walkable communities with plentiful local shops, services and amenities also report being more likely to know and trust their neighbours — relationships that may actually keep them alive in times of crisis.

Consider the Japanese tsunami in 2011: When a six story-high wave smashed into the country’s northeastern coast, local relationships were a matter of life and death. In closely connected communities, residents sought out the elderly and the vulnerable and carried them to safety before the wave hit, sometimes on their backs. High-trust areas had a much higher survival rate than disconnected places. Then, in the months following the disaster, their residents were the quickest to return and the most successful at restarting their local economies.

These connections are even more important for people at the low end of the income scale, who are also more likely to be Black, Indigenous or immigrants. When a blistering heat wave struck Chicago in 1995, nearly 700 people died in the course of three days. But sociologist Eric Klinenberg found that, among poorer, racialized neighbourhoods, the death rate was 90 per cent lower where there was social infrastructure such as local shops, services and community centres.

Poor children who grow up in mixed-use, walkable places are more likely to climb up the socio-economic ladder too. It’s partly because they can reach opportunities without a car. But it’s also because people in walkable places tend to feel a deeper sense of belonging, an invisible but powerful emotional tonic which actually predicts changes in social class over time.

These psychological effects are just beginning to be understood by city planners. But the health gap for poor, racialized Canadians, who suffer disproportionately from a host of life-shortening conditions beyond COVID-19, is well documented. Neighbourhood design can help, and in an age when inequity is triggering protest in cities across North America, now is the time to act.

The pandemic has thrown all of us into a season of shock. But it has also created an unprecedented opportunity for change. In response to the crisis, neighbourhood streets have been slowed down to give people room to move and breathe. Parking lanes in business districts are being converted into patios for social distance dining and shopping. Homeless people have been offered rooms in hotels.

These are healthy moves. Now we need to go further, to make all of our neighbourhoods more complete machines for a healthier future.

We need to make this spring’s temporary walk and bike zones permanent, to ensure that it’s safe to travel in ways that are cheap and healthy.

We need to remove the ban on commercial activity in residential neighbourhoods so corner stores and other entrepreneurs can operate near where people live (and increasingly work).

We need to end the ban on multi-family housing in most Canadian neighbourhoods, so people across the income spectrum can live near daily destinations and crush their brutal commutes.

We need to cancel the rules, such as minimum parking requirements, that drive up the cost of new buildings in walkable places.

We need to ensure that federal or provincial stimulus funding is directed to affordable housing in complete neighbourhoods, rather than “shovel-ready” automobile infrastructure that subsidizes life-shortening sprawl

We need to ensure that Black, Indigenous and other marginalized Canadians are helping direct changes in their own neighbourhoods, since they have been hurt the most by unhealthy design.

In short, we need to do everything we can to let our neighbourhoods flourish as complete communities for everyone.

This may not stop the next pandemic. But the evidence is clear. Complete, complex and inclusive neighbourhoods will help us all stay healthier and stronger, not just in times of crisis, but every day.


Charles Montgomery is principal of the urban wellbeing consultancy, Happy City, and a member of the UN Sustainable Solutions Network’s sub-council for Happy Cities. @thehappycity

https://nationalpost.com/news/suburb...super-spreader
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #222  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2020, 8:06 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
A lot of deaths would have been prevented by more effective virus controls within long-term care homes.

A lot of deaths would have been prevented with adequate and comprehensive testing of vulnerable people and their caregivers.

A lot of deaths would have been prevented if sick people had quarantined themselves. I suspect that most of the super spreaders were in this category and had not quarantined themselves.

The most obvious prevention measures were not implemented early enough or not implemented properly.
Nonlockdown countries: Sweden, Iceland, Belarus, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. their results have been as good or better than the lockdown countries...
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/...ckdown-policy/

Dr. Knut M. Wittkowski: Social distancing only prolongs the virus’ existence:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/youtub...ckdown/5713486
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #223  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2020, 8:17 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
An accepted definition of quarantine is "a restraint upon the activities or communication of persons or the transport of goods designed to prevent the spread of disease or pests" soooooo...

No, this isn't tyranny.
Yes it is if it the restraints have been proven to be ineffective and there are 'shenanigans' going on. Once again: Why did Trudeau gather closely with many people during lat week's protest, disregarding 'social distancing'? 'Social Distancing' is a farce.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/...navirus-panic/

I am not gonna do your homework for you. If you 'blindly' accept the MSM and government narrative because you're 'lazy-minded' or you're too busy, or whatever the reason, without researching whether or not what you've been fed to you is 'true', then that's your problem....You have a better chance of protecting yourself by eating Cheetos than by wearing a mask and by doing the 'social distance' tango...because there's nothing to protect you from that will threaten your life, unless you live in a nursing home and you are over 80years of age...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #224  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2020, 11:17 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by migo View Post
Nonlockdown countries: Sweden, Iceland, Belarus, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. their results have been as good or better than the lockdown countries...
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/...ckdown-policy/

Dr. Knut M. Wittkowski: Social distancing only prolongs the virus’ existence:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/youtub...ckdown/5713486
Sweden?!?!?

Yeah, nej.
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #225  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2020, 3:43 AM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Sweden?!?!?

Yeah, nej.
As if that’s the only problem with the post. You know who else didn’t lock down initially - Brazil, Mexico, the UK, the US. All great success stories.

Pretty sure it’s not worth engaging with someone who dismisses the “MSM” as a group (i.e. people performing actual journalism) and cites 21st Centurywire as his information source. Just saying.

It’s sad that some seem intent on bringing American-style conspiracy peddling to Canada. Those tactics have really elevated the level of public discourse in the US.

Last edited by phil235; Jun 17, 2020 at 3:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #226  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2020, 8:50 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
As if that’s the only problem with the post. You know who else didn’t lock down initially - Brazil, Mexico, the UK, the US. All great success stories.

Pretty sure it’s not worth engaging with someone who dismisses the “MSM” as a group (i.e. people performing actual journalism) and cites 21st Centurywire as his information source. Just saying.

It’s sad that some seem intent on bringing American-style conspiracy peddling to Canada. Those tactics have really elevated the level of public discourse in the US.
Sure. Just Ask Trudeau why he brought America-style shoulder-to-shoulder protesting to Ottawa if social-distancing is really that crucial to 'the cause'. Let me know what you come up with...LOL!

If you believe what comes out of the Comedy News Network without verification, then you're remaining a sheeple is your problem. I hope you find a cure for your 'blindness'. If you don't, your life will be a struggle...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #227  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2020, 10:45 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by migo View Post
Sure. Just Ask Trudeau why he brought America-style shoulder-to-shoulder protesting to Ottawa if social-distancing is really that crucial to 'the cause'. Let me know what you come up with...LOL!

If you believe what comes out of the Comedy News Network without verification, then you're remaining a sheeple is your problem. I hope you find a cure for your 'blindness'. If you don't, your life will be a struggle...
My life's just great, but thanks for your concern. So let's see, your idea of "verification" is to go to a site like 21st Centurywire? I'll give you some help spotting an unreliable news source:

- finds a lone "expert" who disagrees with a broad, well-supported scientific consensus and presents that expert as evidence that the consensus is wrong (check)
- presents statements of political ideology as truth (check)
- cites its own articles to support its reporting (check)
- makes broad statements that sound true-ish at first read, but don't stand up to scrutiny (check, for instance see your post: Trudeau brought American style protesting to Ottawa. Well, to be fair, that one doesn't even sound truish at first read.)
- shows a blatant disregard for the risk to people’s health and welfare if they actually listen and act on what is being published (check)

If you're still having trouble verifying what sites are actual objective news sites, you can try looking at a neutral site like allsides.com that rates media bias, or one of the many independent fact-checking sites. Spoiler alert, it's not CNN that shows extreme bias or regularly presents mis-leading facts.

One thing I never got about conspiracy theorists: they pride themselves in seeing through the lies of the MSM, and then turn around and put all of their faith in these pseudo news sites run by a guy in his garage who doesn’t even pretend to try to his his agenda.

There is no dispute by anyone with any credibility that social distancing is effective. Now please take your ideological-based conspiracy nonsense elsewhere.

Last edited by phil235; Jun 17, 2020 at 11:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #228  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 2:08 AM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
My life's just great, but thanks for your concern. So let's see, your idea of "verification" is to go to a site like 21st Centurywire? I'll give you some help spotting an unreliable news source:

- finds a lone "expert" who disagrees with a broad, well-supported scientific consensus and presents that expert as evidence that the consensus is wrong (check)
- presents statements of political ideology as truth (check)
- cites its own articles to support its reporting (check)
- makes broad statements that sound true-ish at first read, but don't stand up to scrutiny (check, for instance see your post: Trudeau brought American style protesting to Ottawa. Well, to be fair, that one doesn't even sound truish at first read.)
- shows a blatant disregard for the risk to people’s health and welfare if they actually listen and act on what is being published (check)

If you're still having trouble verifying what sites are actual objective news sites, you can try looking at a neutral site like allsides.com that rates media bias, or one of the many independent fact-checking sites. Spoiler alert, it's not CNN that shows extreme bias or regularly presents mis-leading facts.

One thing I never got about conspiracy theorists: they pride themselves in seeing through the lies of the MSM, and then turn around and put all of their faith in these pseudo news sites run by a guy in his garage who doesn’t even pretend to try to his his agenda.

There is no dispute by anyone with any credibility that social distancing is effective. Now please take your ideological-based conspiracy nonsense elsewhere.
Out of Shadows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jxRS7iW-rU

Good luck with how you perceive the world around you...and with how you perceive yourself...

P.S.: "Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play... If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." -Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #229  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 2:29 AM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by migo View Post
Out of Shadows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jxRS7iW-rU

Good luck with how you perceive the world around you...and with how you perceive yourself...

P.S.: "Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play... If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." -Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany
Providing Nazi quotes to support your ridiculous claims about COVID, rather than addressing any points directly? Very persuasive. Good night.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #230  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 3:42 PM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 491
Migo, you should read The Death of Expertise by Tom Nichols.

Everyone and their dog are feeling equipped to speak with the authority of actual experts and it's toxic to public discourse.

Deriding actual journalism and the consensus of the medical community in favour of questionable bloggers on an alt-news sites is astoundingly stupid.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #231  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 7:29 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
Providing Nazi quotes to support your ridiculous claims about COVID, rather than addressing any points directly? Very persuasive. Good night.
Sorry your tiny "normy" bubble of perception has left you cognitively dissonant.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #232  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 7:40 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
Migo, you should read The Death of Expertise by Tom Nichols.

Everyone and their dog are feeling equipped to speak with the authority of actual experts and it's toxic to public discourse.

Deriding actual journalism and the consensus of the medical community in favour of questionable bloggers on an alt-news sites is astoundingly stupid.
Many members of the 'global medical community' are @ odds and are not in consensus with each other on this topic. One camp of 'experts' state: "Everyone of all ages socially distance themselves, and wear a mask, gloves, and lockdown the economy"...!, while the other camp of 'experts' state: "No need..." Do your research. But if you want to wear a 'diaper' over your mouth, you're 'free' to decide...while you're still 'free' to make decisions for yourself.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #233  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 7:47 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
Migo, you should read The Death of Expertise by Tom Nichols.

Everyone and their dog are feeling equipped to speak with the authority of actual experts and it's toxic to public discourse.

Deriding actual journalism and the consensus of the medical community in favour of questionable bloggers on an alt-news sites is astoundingly stupid.
That's unsurprisingly blind and stupid of you. Thanks...And you can't say I didn't tell you so.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #234  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 9:07 PM
Requin Requin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
Migo, you should read The Death of Expertise by Tom Nichols.

Everyone and their dog are feeling equipped to speak with the authority of actual experts and it's toxic to public discourse.

Deriding actual journalism and the consensus of the medical community in favour of questionable bloggers on an alt-news sites is astoundingly stupid.
In my opinion, there has been a near complete lack of discourse on this issue and I find it very, very alarming. There seems to be no debate or open discussion whatsoever as to the appropriateness of the measures that have been taken and continue to be enforced. I also find it highly implausible that all the experts are in unanimous agreement as to the risks. Where are the alternate opinions? Where is the discussion about alternate courses of action? The whole thing seems completely unbalanced.

If you dare speak out, you are frequently shamed and judged. When I hear that Ford wants to extend the state of emergency to July 15, I just have to roll my eyes. It's completely ridiculous.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #235  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 9:16 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requin View Post
In my opinion, there has been a near complete lack of discourse on this issue and I find it very, very alarming. There seems to be no debate or open discussion whatsoever as to the appropriateness of the measures that have been taken and continue to be enforced. I also find it highly implausible that all the experts are in unanimous agreement as to the risks. Where are the alternate opinions? Where is the discussion about alternate courses of action? The whole thing seems completely unbalanced.

If you dare speak out, you are frequently shamed and judged. When I hear that Ford wants to extend the state of emergency to July 15, I just have to roll my eyes. It's completely ridiculous.
Why exactly is it implausible that the experts would agree that social distancing reduces transmission of an airborne illness? Sometimes the science is clear.

The suggestion that there is a competing "camp" of epidemiologists who are somehow being silenced is not supported by any evidence. It's a claim right out of the conspiracy theorists playbook - suggest there is an open debate where one does not exist. There is all sorts of discourse on this issue. It just supports a broad consensus on the core science.

But more than that, I see a fundamental problem with your premise. You seem to be suggesting that there is a value to public debate on the best methods of reducing virus transmission in the general population. I respectfully suggest that the general public has nothing of value to add on the scientific aspects of epidemiology. The death of expertise is due to the trend towards thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, regardless of whether the person has any expertise in the area or facts to support their opinion.

This isn't a game. COVID is a dangerous virus. The spread of misinformation in the guise of "debate" results in more people getting very sick and dying.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #236  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 9:30 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,844
Given all the contradictions presented by experts on virus transmission, it seems reasonable to question everything.

To me (and this nothing new), transmission of viruses comes from touching contaminated hard surface or by inhaling virus from coughs or sneezes of infected people.

So many comments have been made based on guesses and not scientific fact. For example, the spread of virus by asymptomatic people. How does one actually test whether this is true? Decisions are being made based on possibilities and fear.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #237  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 10:01 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Given all the contradictions presented by experts on virus transmission, it seems reasonable to question everything.

To me (and this nothing new), transmission of viruses comes from touching contaminated hard surface or by inhaling virus from coughs or sneezes of infected people.

So many comments have been made based on guesses and not scientific fact. For example, the spread of virus by asymptomatic people. How does one actually test whether this is true? Decisions are being made based on possibilities and fear.
It’s a new virus, so of course there are things that are not known definitively. Most experts were very clear about that. Unknowns do not equal contradictions.

That actually demonstrates my point. People see a newspaper article about a preliminary study that says something, and decide that is contradictory. It’s not. It is one data point in a broader assessment. That is how science works. Multiple studies need to be conducted and reviewed and then the results of the studies are assessed as a whole. When enough evidence is available, the body of scientific knowledge advances. The process takes time, and requires expertise to assess the study results. That’s why you don’t hear experts making pronouncements based on a single study.

I’m not sure why any of this leads to a conclusion that we should question everything. Unless we are conducting our own research, we ultimately need to rely on the best information sources available. I know where I’m putting my money.

And that said, there has been very little contradictory evidence about the basic means of transmission, or the fact that social distancing measures work.

Last edited by phil235; Jun 18, 2020 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #238  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 10:10 PM
migo migo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
Why exactly is it implausible that the experts would agree that social distancing reduces transmission of an airborne illness? Sometimes the science is clear.

The suggestion that there is a competing "camp" of epidemiologists who are somehow being silenced is not supported by any evidence. It's a claim right out of the conspiracy theorists playbook - suggest there is an open debate where one does not exist. There is all sorts of discourse on this issue. It just supports a broad consensus on the core science.

But more than that, I see a fundamental problem with your premise. You seem to be suggesting that there is a value to public debate on the best methods of reducing virus transmission in the general population. I respectfully suggest that the general public has nothing of value to add on the scientific aspects of epidemiology. The death of expertise is due to the trend towards thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, regardless of whether the person has any expertise in the area or facts to support their opinion.

This isn't a game. COVID is a dangerous virus. The spread of misinformation in the guise of "debate" results in more people getting very sick and dying.
"...The spread of misinformation..." You have the burden of proof to demonstrate what information is misinformation...good luck, you'll need it!

Here. I've done a little of your homework for you:
https://questioningcovid.com/

P.S.: knowledge empowers you. Think critically. And yes, it's not a game: this is not about 'ego', who's right and who's wrong! This is about ensuring a populace is well-informed in order to prevent blind and emotional faith of a narrative. And if that narrative is scientifically 'rock solid' during a peer-review phase, then that's what should be embraced. Once you have a large number of the scientific and medical community disputing 'the official narrative', and you have a politically elected 'leader' disregarding the 'official narrative' in order to participate in a large, shoulder-to-shoulder, group-gathering, then there is a problem, one that has cost millions of people their jobs, their health, and God knows what else...so everyone put their egos away and begin researching! You'll be amazed at what you discover!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #239  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 11:05 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by migo View Post
Nonlockdown countries: Sweden, Iceland, Belarus, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. their results have been as good or better than the lockdown countries...
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/...ckdown-policy/

Dr. Knut M. Wittkowski: Social distancing only prolongs the virus’ existence:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/youtub...ckdown/5713486
Sweden as a credible response and citing the conspiracy nutters at globalresearch.ca? What are you going to do for an encore?

South Korea is a great model. Would Canadians ever tolerate that kind of intrusion into their personal lives to ensure effective disease tracking? I'm not sure.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #240  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2020, 11:14 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
Migo, you should read The Death of Expertise by Tom Nichols.
This book is amazing. Completely nailed what I long suspected. And kind of ironic that the same tools that enable access to previously unfathomable amounts of knowledge has also facilitated the attack on expertise that allowed society to get us as far as we have.

So now measles is back in fashion and people think they can take whatever drug because some politician said it was a good idea on TV. As an engineer I'm always wondering how long before building codes and safety standards become optional?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > General Discussion
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:31 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.