HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #441  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2015, 9:49 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Where the population of Europe is growing – and where it’s declining

http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/euro...52.11/16.44/en
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #442  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2015, 1:06 PM
nito nito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,526
Following on from Fern’s post (#440) the UK is certainly experiencing strong population growth, and I would not be surprised if this year tops the previous record set in 2011.

What is crazy as well is the continued growth of London: up 122,146 in a single year. Over the decade to mid-2014, London, the South East and East saw combined population growth of 2.4mn.


Image sourced from the Office for National Statistics: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-es...e-uk-2014.html
__________________
London Transport Thread updated: 2020_06_16
London Stadium & Arena Thread updated: 2019_04_03
London General Update Thread updated: 2019_04_03
High Speed 2 updated: 2020_06_16
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #443  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2015, 5:51 PM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Wow, if this trend continues, the UK will be clearly surpassing France in population, even including all its overseas territories, the UK could have more population than France in a few years
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #444  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2015, 5:54 PM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
Where the population of Europe is growing – and where it’s declining

http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/euro...52.11/16.44/en
I can´t figure out if this is about natural change or if it also considers migration, and if it´s a proyection or it´s a retrospective information
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #445  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2015, 5:08 PM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
that prick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nimbyland Paris, Museum France
Posts: 3,686
Um, I feel like we still need the Germans, and even more than we ever did before. So it's kind of worrying to see them going fewer and fewer at this rate.
Again, there's still that good old effective solution in that matter: nurseries funded by municipalities. It kinda works here, so why not out there?
__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
I like bass. Give me some.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #446  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 2:29 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 20,760
Do any of the French forumers know where to access income data for Paris and region? I'm particularly interested in maps/visuals (for instance, household income by arrondissement). Thanks!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #447  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 2:30 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 20,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Um, I feel like we still need the Germans, and even more than we ever did before. So it's kind of worrying to see them going fewer and fewer at this rate.
Again, there's still that good old effective solution in that matter: nurseries funded by municipalities. It kinda works here, so why not out there?
Germany needs cultural change to make more babies; they already provide generous subsidies and Kindergeld.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #448  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 2:12 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 33,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
Where the population of Europe is growing – and where it’s declining

http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/euro...52.11/16.44/en

fascinating interactive page.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #449  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 2:04 AM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Germany needs cultural change to make more babies; they already provide generous subsidies and Kindergeld.
Imo, they´re not as generous as France and their generosity started recently, it could take time till society accepts nurses in daycare institutions but anyway, they´ll have to be more generous if they don´t want to see their country becoming a whole different society in only a few decades
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #450  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 4:09 AM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
that prick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nimbyland Paris, Museum France
Posts: 3,686
I was very surprised the 1st time I heard of this. The basic problem in Germany is some sort of little sexism combined to a certain notion of parenting. The latter is the key issue here. I think that's what Crawford is alluding to. In the German lifestyle, a young mother shouldn't be working. They're supposed to stay home to take care of their little kids. Once kids are teens, they may work without being called unfit, neglectful mothers. It can't work in contemporary society. Many young women would rather care about their careers and say - we'll see about kids later.

They only need to learn how to rely on nurseries while they're at work, then this particular problem would be solved. I know some mean French would say - ha ha, we'll soon be the largest population of Western Europe. The smarter point is the Germans are actually quite helpful, eh. It's no secret here. So we have no interest in seeing their population declining.
__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
I like bass. Give me some.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #451  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 12:11 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 20,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I was very surprised the 1st time I heard of this. The basic problem in Germany is some sort of little sexism combined to a certain notion of parenting. The latter is the key issue here. I think that's what Crawford is alluding to. In the German lifestyle, a young mother shouldn't be working. They're supposed to stay home to take care of their little kids. Once kids are teens, they may work without being called unfit, neglectful mothers. It can't work in contemporary society. Many young women would rather care about their careers and say - we'll see about kids later.
This phenomenon is called "Rabenmutter". It's a very bad insult to working mothers. In German society it's still ingrained that, because motherhood is a choice, once you make such a choice, family, not work, is the priority, or you're neglecting your kids.

So, yes, benefits for German mothers will have to increase, but that is not the main issue. The US and UK have limited benefits for mothers compared to Germany, yet they both have birthrates like those of the French.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
They only need to learn how to rely on nurseries while they're at work, then this particular problem would be solved. I know some mean French would say - ha ha, we'll soon be the largest population of Western Europe. The smarter point is the Germans are actually quite helpful, eh. It's no secret here. So we have no interest in seeing their population declining.
I actually think that France has a brighter future than Germany. Yes, Germany has the better economy right now, and probably slightly higher quality of life, but I think long-term trends favor the French.

For one, the French don't need immigrants; Germany does. And Germany needs TONS of immigrants just to have a stable population. You see lots of kids on the streets of French cities, and not just Arabs or immigrants/children of immigrants. In contrast, Germany may have to choose between identity and prosperity. In the big German cities already 70%+ of school-age children are immigrants or children of immigrants.

And second, the French have clung to their native culture tighter than the Germans. Along with high native birthrates, this means that French society and cultural norms can continue into the indefinite future. I think this, in the long-run, will be more beneficial, as French culture has so much to offer the world. Germans are more globalist in outlook, which I think harms some of their cultural attributes (especially the Protestant sacrifice, thrift and modesty).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #452  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 5:50 PM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I actually think that France has a brighter future than Germany. Yes, Germany has the better economy right now, and probably slightly higher quality of life, but I think long-term trends favor the French.

For one, the French don't need immigrants; Germany does. And Germany needs TONS of immigrants just to have a stable population. You see lots of kids on the streets of French cities, and not just Arabs or immigrants/children of immigrants. In contrast, Germany may have to choose between identity and prosperity. In the big German cities already 70%+ of school-age children are immigrants or children of immigrants.
I don´t quite agree, I´m really not a France fan like some in this forum, furthermore not an Eurozone fan either, I think between France and Germany would be a close tie in the long term, but I really doubt Germany will give up its marginal economic advantage in Europe just because its low fertility. France might have high fertility now but that situation might not last forever, the same goes for Germany´s low fertility. On the other hand, Germany is, despite all its problems, more successful attracting and integrating high numbers of immigrants than France, where you have no go ghetos surrounding its big cities (have you walked through those streets too?), much of its population covert immigrants from France overseas territories, not nececsarily culturally related to France


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And second, the French have clung to their native culture tighter than the Germans. Along with high native birthrates, this means that French society and cultural norms can continue into the indefinite future. I think this, in the long-run, will be more beneficial, as French culture has so much to offer the world. Germans are more globalist in outlook, which I think harms some of their cultural attributes (especially the Protestant sacrifice, thrift and modesty).
That´s not necessarily an advantage, a changing culture is also an expresion of innovation and success, many immigrants from east europe or elswhere go to west europe to find a better future, better education and to contribute to the economy, if a culture/society is not able to attract them and only has one thing to offer, that´s a limitation
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #453  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 6:07 PM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
that prick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nimbyland Paris, Museum France
Posts: 3,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreat View Post
I´m really not a France fan
Hell, why do you even bother saying it? We had noticed yet anyway. I'll tell you what, I'm no real UK fan either. Too much of hypocritically hidden grit over there. I'd rather pick Switzerland, where they train workers to be the most skilled in the world instead of despising them, as my role model.

The greater amount of teens we'd get in colleges, the more unemployed.

That's an amazingly provocative Swiss saying. And it works fine over there. Better than at yours or mine. Their industry's the finest quality worldwide. Switzerland is worth watching. While some others only predictable...
__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
I like bass. Give me some.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #454  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2015, 6:26 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 20,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreat View Post
On the other hand, Germany is, despite all its problems, more successful attracting and integrating high numbers of immigrants than France, where you have no go ghetos surrounding its big cities (have you walked through those streets too?), much of its population covert immigrants from France overseas territories, not nececsarily culturally related to France.
While there are no "ghettos" in Germany, I would say that the segregation in German cities isn't that different than in France. Immigrants and non-Germans tend to cluster in deprived outer neighborhoods and in housing projects (and housing projects in Germany are often referred to in a racist manner which I won't repeat).

And I have walked through St. Denis and other rougher immigrant areas in the Paris region. They aren't exactly "nice", but are not that bad overall. The media likes to exaggerate when they see black and brown people.

The one difference I have noticed is that there is more "order" in German immigrant hoods (so, for example, tons of people in St. Denis will be jumping over/under the Metro entrance or there may be more littering; in Germany petty disorder is less obvious than in France). And, of course, Germany and France don't have similar immigrant populations overall, so that could play a role.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #455  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 3:51 AM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Hell, why do you even bother saying it? We had noticed yet anyway. I'll tell you what, I'm no real UK fan either. Too much of hypocritically hidden grit over there. I'd rather pick Switzerland, where they train workers to be the most skilled in the world instead of despising them, as my role model.

The greater amount of teens we'd get in colleges, the more unemployed.

That's an amazingly provocative Swiss saying. And it works fine over there. Better than at yours or mine. Their industry's the finest quality worldwide. Switzerland is worth watching. While some others only predictable...
The Eurozone is not like Switzerland, that´s why the UK stays away from it. An economic union, makes sense, but a union in which its countries and

their own different cultures are always trying to break the rules, blaming the others for their misfortunes and prioritizing their interests over

the common welfare, that doesn´t look very promising.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #456  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 4:06 AM
JGreat JGreat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
While there are no "ghettos" in Germany, I would say that the segregation in German cities isn't that different than in France. Immigrants and non-Germans tend to cluster in deprived outer neighborhoods and in housing projects (and housing projects in Germany are often referred to in a racist manner which I won't repeat).

And I have walked through St. Denis and other rougher immigrant areas in the Paris region. They aren't exactly "nice", but are not that bad overall. The media likes to exaggerate when they see black and brown people.

The one difference I have noticed is that there is more "order" in German immigrant hoods (so, for example, tons of people in St. Denis will be jumping over/under the Metro entrance or there may be more littering; in Germany petty disorder is less obvious than in France). And, of course, Germany and France don't have similar immigrant populations overall, so that could play a role.
Disagree, the situation in german and french or even UK cities is not similar, both have segregation, german "Problembezirke" are not as massive and dangerous as french "Banlieues" though, some are even in the process of gentrification. I don´t have to tell you my experiences or media sources, we are in 2015, you and anyone can google difficult places in each country and take a streetview-tour of them for yourselves, maybe Neukölln, Kreuzberg or Neuperlach and then Clichy-sous-Bois, Les Izards or St. Denis, I struggled to detect some "segregation" signs in the german neighbourhoods while in the french ones, this was evident everywhere even indigence was evident in some places.

Fertility rates is not the only factor to judge the future, other factors like quality of education, immigration and its integration in the society are also very important. Of course this problem affects all big countries in Europe, but I think in France it´s worse, maybe because of the bad economic situation or maybe mismanagement. Media exaggeration can´t account for riotings every now and then in french suburbs, and widespread voters response to xenophobic movements.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #457  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 10:34 AM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
that prick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nimbyland Paris, Museum France
Posts: 3,686
^ France is still paying a little bit for it's hypocrisy and massive deception from the past. It's still hard for some African immigrants, especially the less successful of them coming from the most corrupted and impoverished countries to forgive a country whose motto famously promises "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" while having been a racist colonial power. The Germans will never have to face that kind of challenges, that makes a difference.

Besides, massive immigration from other continents is something more recent in Germany, whereas it began in the 1950s over here, due to our connections to former colonies. We've had to deal with millions of immigrants from remote countries and real exotic cultures for longer.

That said, France has been widely redeveloping its roughest suburbs, and you see more and more French people born to Afro immigrants who're normally integrated to business, now. So your segregation stories are getting a little outdated. Things are changing over the course of time, right?
__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
I like bass. Give me some.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #458  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 2:06 PM
Miu Miu is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I was very surprised the 1st time I heard of this. The basic problem in Germany is some sort of little sexism combined to a certain notion of parenting. The latter is the key issue here. I think that's what Crawford is alluding to. In the German lifestyle, a young mother shouldn't be working. They're supposed to stay home to take care of their little kids. Once kids are teens, they may work without being called unfit, neglectful mothers. It can't work in contemporary society. Many young women would rather care about their careers and say - we'll see about kids later.

They only need to learn how to rely on nurseries while they're at work, then this particular problem would be solved. I know some mean French would say - ha ha, we'll soon be the largest population of Western Europe. The smarter point is the Germans are actually quite helpful, eh. It's no secret here. So we have no interest in seeing their population declining.
This seems to be the preferred explanation of the moment among demographers, but I'm not convinced. For one, Germany has the second highest overall female labor participation rate among G7 countries and an average maternal employment rate (higher than the US and about the same as the UK). Moreover, working mothers have been the norm in East Germany since long before anywhere in Western Europe or North America, yet birth rates there are no higher than in West German states. Similarly, Austria has one of the highest maternal activity rates in the world, but its fertility rate is nearly as low as Germany's.

There is a strong 'naturalist' undercurrent in West Germany that might explain why parents are reluctant to leave their children at childcare centers all day, but again, sociocultural norms and attitudes with regard to child rearing/parenthood in English-speaking countries are much more similar to those of (West) Germans than to those of the French, yet their fertility rates are closer to the latter.

Germany has become something of a laboratory for demographic/immigration policies and dealing with an aging workforce. It should be noted that fertility rates of non-immigrant Canadians or white Americans, for instance, aren't all that much higher than those of Germans (France seems to be an exception in this regard). What makes Germany's problems more acute, however, is that its immigrants have similarly low fertility rates as the native population and that fertility rates have been consistently low for longer than other countries, so that the shift in its age structure is more advanced.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #459  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 2:28 PM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
that prick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nimbyland Paris, Museum France
Posts: 3,686
It's also interesting to note, lots of married couples in France are already mixed-race. I witnessed it countless times in my lifetime, and just right now. One of my neighbors is a smiling black firefighter hanging out with a blond chick. No one cares over here, people don't even mind. This is another difference, too.
__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
I like bass. Give me some.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #460  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2015, 5:13 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 20,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreat View Post
I don´t have to tell you my experiences or media sources, we are in 2015, you and anyone can google difficult places in each country and take a streetview-tour of them for yourselves, maybe Neukölln, Kreuzberg or Neuperlach and then Clichy-sous-Bois, Les Izards or St. Denis, I struggled to detect some "segregation" signs in the german neighbourhoods while in the french ones, this was evident everywhere even indigence was evident in some places.
Those aren't remotely equivalent neighborhoods. Neukölln and Kreuzberg are gentrified inner-city neighborhoods filled with young German professionals. Les Izards and St. Denis are deprived suburban neighborhood filled with immigrants.

If you compare apples to apples (so Kreuzberg to anywhere in East Paris, or Neuperlach (Munich) to St. Denis), you will see they are quite similar. In both Kreuzberg and anywhere in Paris east of the center, you will see former immigrant areas filled with young professionals. Similarly, in Neuperlach and St. Denis you will see poor 90% immigrant areas filled with non-Europeans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:00 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.