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View Poll Results: Will Virginia one day not be considered southern?
Yes 25 38.46%
No 40 61.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 8:54 PM
jd3189 jd3189 is online now
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.
I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?
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  #102  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.
Just like every other big city, and many smaller ones, in the South?
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  #103  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 2:24 AM
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
... and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include ... Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans ... ?
Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"
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  #104  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 4:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?
If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts, it'll probably be make more sense to refer to Midwestern/Heartland states vs East Coast.
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  #105  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 4:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.
Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.
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  #106  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 5:25 AM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.
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  #107  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.
I'm not sure whether you realize we're in agreement...? Sauerkraut wasn't German in the early Middle Ages; Sauerkraut is German now; Virginia was Southern in 1860; NoVa isn't Southern now; etc.

In other words - things can change; someday, KFC might be culturally Japanese and Virginia might be culturally Yankee. Just because KFC was unarguably not Japanese at all at some point in the past, doesn't mean KFC can't eventually become typical Japanese food at some point in the future.
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  #108  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.
It will be, by the people who are on my side of the argument; it won't be, by the people who are on the side that insists that [Virginia/KFC] was [Southern/Not-Japanese] 200 years ago, and therefore, can never become anything else.
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  #109  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.
Exactly my point. Independence/secession isn't the one thing culture hinges on. Irish culture existed in the 1910s and earlier; Scottish culture exists now; Gatineau is currently a Québécois city where people eat poutine and watch TLMEP on Sunday despite a tendency to vote PQ/BQ significantly less than the rest of us.
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  #110  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.
That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.
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  #111  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?
Yes;
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts,
they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)
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  #112  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Yes;they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)
No. They wouldn't cease to be southern. New York/ Philly/ Boston are still culturally northeast (with some variation) with DC kind of in the middle of both north/ south but VA through GA will remain southern even if more integrated with other metros.
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  #113  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.
Christmas is also romantic holiday in Japan (similar to Valentine's Day), which westerners would find extremely weird.
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  #114  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.
My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.
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  #115  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.
Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.
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  #116  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 9:39 PM
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What's strange is the very seem people who are asserting "change" and 'history is not static" are the most adamant about removing Virginia from the South.
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  #117  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 5:17 AM
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I agree that Virginia now looks more towards the NE than south. Parts of it are southern, but so are parts of Maryland and even Pennsylvania.

Once Richmond no longer feels strongly southern, Virginia clearly joins the NE. Same with Jacksonville in Florida, once it flips, there can be no argument that the state is no longer southern. The rest of the historical south is still pretty solid with mainstream islands within.
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  #118  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan View Post
Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.
This is like becoming a broken record now on this forum.
Miami wasn't settled or developed by "Southerners" to begin with.
The argument you are making makes sense if you are talking about Atlanta because no matter how many different types of people move there that city is still drenched in Southern history & culture.
Miami never was.
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  #119  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.
thats true of anywhere though. move to the pacific nw you will be wearing fleece and never dress up nice again. move to ohio women will end up with a speak to the manager suburban helmet hairstyle. etc. any region has its own thing. i guess that just reiterates the south is hardly uniform.
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  #120  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.
Okay, but if subject of this thread were a settled issue in the American context like it is in these other non-American scenarios, then the entire premise of this thread would make zero sense and we wouldn't be discussing it.
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