The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

won't a lot of prickup truck drivers avoid EV out of religious convictions (i.e., wanting...or very badly needing to own the libs)?

Maybe. But companies who pay for them will primarily care about cost. They might be apprehensive of the suitability of a new drive train for a bit, but once they have field data that an electric or hybrid work truck is cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle, they will buy them. When the ecoboost f150s came out, there was a few years when they gave us the option to have the V8, then they just made everyone get the more expensive, but more fuel efficient ecoboost.

[lio45]

For my use, the optimal cost effective choice is not an EV pickup, but an older, high-quality yet cheap used one.

My 7.3 PowerStroke is THE perfect work truck for Quebec, the exact model year for that engine that allows you to pay ~1/3 the yearly plates cost (all other such pickups are subjected to a displacement tax; mine costs the same as a Toyota Echo or Honda Fit).

My first EV will cost me $5k or less, just like my good friend's Nissan Leaf, and it therefore won't be a truck, even though I really like that Rivian pickup.

I wanted to get my gf into an EV for her commute, but last year she changed jobs and started working from home (at a higher-paying job so win win) and barely uses her ICE car anymore, so that plan ceased to make any sense.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Maybe. But companies who pay for them will primarily care about cost. They might be apprehensive of the suitability of a new drive train for a bit, but once they have field data that an electric or hybrid work truck is cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle, they will buy them.

It's really not even a question for fleets anymore. They are going electric as soon as they get vehicles that fit the roles they use them for. Mostly there's been a shortage of models targeting this space. But that's changing.

Fleet applications are truly where EVs shine. High usage means the fuel and maintenance savings are higher. Unlike, consumers, fleet users don't care about aesthetics. Nor do they have the same sticker shock on purpose. Total cost of ownership is all that matters. There's also the customization that is possible with EVs, which is just not possible with traditional vehicles.

The work that Arrival Electric is going with Royal Mail and UPS in the UK is good example. They analyzed their routes and came up with multiple vehicles with multiple battery sizes to ensure that the overall fleet is actually both cheaper to buy and operate than the gas/diesel vehicles they are replacing. They also looked at the tasks the drivers did to better layout the vehicle to make their job easier and more efficient.

• Video Link

Similarly Rivian is custom designing an electric delivery van for Amazon to completely electrify their fleet in a decade, complete with task analysis in VR:

• Video Link

There's even EVs for applications like airport ground support equipment (GSE):

• Video Link

[milomilo]

For the work I do, oilfield work, an EV truck definitely wouldn't work yet. Long drives in remote areas, in the cold, you really don't want a vehicle with questionable range.

I look forward to seeing the development though.

[Truenorth00]

Sure. Electric trucks won't work for every application just yet. But the addresable market grows every year as the tech gets better. And we're already at the point where, for many applications, EVs aren't just some hippie green alternative. They are actually the better choice.

[Hackslack]

Some fleet vehicles run natural gas combustion too. I know Calgary is transferring all its buses to natural gas, and I’m certain a large number of ATCO fleet vehicles run compressed natural gas too. Much cleaner than diesel of course. I’m interested to see where else CNG fleet vehicles are used.

[Truenorth00]

CNG is a bit late I think. Would have been great 10-20 years ago. Now? I think the tech is moving so fast, they'll be outpaced. Virtually every transit authority in the country is watching the TTC and STM long term trials of battery electric buses. If they go well orders will flow. Costs are also increasingly starting to favour BEBs:



Though Nat Gas might be better for the Prairies and their climate.

[milomilo]

Natural gas is so cheap also it would be hard to justify not using it, still seems behind the times though.

[Calgarian]

Definitely should have been pushed for 20+ years ago, natural gas burns cleaner and is much cheaper.

[Hackslack]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

According to Wikipedia (I know, not a trusted source) , there are 24.5 million NG fleet vehicles worldwide.

To me it is strange this market wasn’t pushed a long time ago. NG is cheap and infrastructure exists almost everywhere.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Natural gas is so cheap also it would be hard to justify not using it, still seems behind the times though.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Definitely should have been pushed for 20+ years ago, natural gas burns cleaner and is much cheaper.

The vehicles aren't cheaper. Usually somewhat range limited. So largely limited to a few applications like taxis. Mostly though the vehicle options aren't there. Compare how many NG car or truck models there are on the market vs. plug in vehicles now. The market seems to have spoken on this one. And short of some major investment, it seems to be a dying segment.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Rivian truck is literally designed to target the camping crowd. Complete with a pull out kitchen:

• Video Link

Towing range is always going to be lower than rated range. And sometimes lower than gas vehicles (the highest Rivian battery has a stated 600 mile range so maybe 400 miles when towing). The question becomes whether the towing range is sufficient for what someone does.

Sounds promising, hopefully they don't have build quality issues like Tesla did at first. I will wait a few more years before considering an EV, want to let all the bugs be found and fixed, and I want the prices to come down a bit.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The vehicles aren't cheaper. Usually somewhat range limited. So largely limited to a few applications like taxis. Mostly though the vehicle options aren't there. Compare how many NG car or truck models there are on the market vs. plug in vehicles now. The market seems to have spoken on this one. And short of some major investment, it seems to be a dying segment.

It's totally a dying segment, that's why I said they should have done it 20 years ago.

While we are on efficient climate vehicles, I read an article the other day that says Mazda's rotary engine would be perfect for ICE hydrogen, wonder if that will ever happen...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Sounds promising, hopefully they don't have build quality issues like Tesla did at first. I will wait a few more years before considering an EV, want to let all the bugs be found and fixed, and I want the prices to come down a bit.

Read up on their CEO. He's everything that Elon Musk pretends to be and more. And the team they hired is just incredible. Rivian's Director of Engineering is from McLaren. I'm much more confident in them than Tesla. They seem to have hired people who actually love cars. Not just tech geeks.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

It's totally a dying segment, that's why I said they should have done it 20 years ago.

While we are on efficient climate vehicles, I read an article the other day that says Mazda's rotary engine would be perfect for ICE hydrogen, wonder if that will ever happen...

Sadly nothing. The whole Japanese push on hydrogen almost looks like a runner up strategy after blowing their lead on electrics. They talk a lot about it. But aren't ever willing to truly go all out.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

VW is. I think the ID3 will be a gamechanger when it starts shipping in the Fall. Specifically because of the price/value point.

Tesla "cheap" =\= Mass adoption price. They want to be the BMW of EVs. Hopefully VW will be the VW of EVs.....

The mythical US$35 000 Model 3 kinda shows this. They don't sell it directly. You have to special order it. Can't order it online. It's there for marketing.

VW has had more than one false start, so I will wait for them to prove it to me before taking their word on anything.

For Tesla, agreed. I think they have the best economics of scale with respect to EVs and profitability, so they could probably make a cheap barebones version. We shall see.

EVs are always fighting against their higher initial cost but lower operating costs. As more get sold, a resale market will develop and allow lower price point consumers to experience EVs for themselves and perhaps change some minds on the value of a new one.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Polestar is the company I'm watching closely, Volvo has their shit together (my next car is likely a Volvo) but the cost may be the biggest hurdle as these cars look very expensive!

I have no idea why they didn't use the power of Volvo's brand name to launch their EVs.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I have no idea why they didn't use the power of Volvo's brand name to launch their EVs.

Yeah not sure why a whole new company was needed, but Polestar branding is starting to appear in Volvo's lineup, so it's not completely isolated either.
https://www.volvocars.com/en-ca/cars...tar-engineered

[MolsonExport]

Isn't Volvo now owned by Geely (mainland Chinese automaker)?

[Calgarian]

Yep Geely own Volvo, they own Lotus too. China owns everything nowadays...

[whatnext]

Surprised nobody noted this here:

Canada's last Arctic ice shelf breaks apart due to warming
Canada's 4,000-year-old Milne Ice Shelf has broken apart due to melting from both hotter air above and warmer water below. Much of the Earth's ice shelves have collapsed because of rising temperatures in both poles

Climate change and the effects of a hot summer have caused Canada's Milne Ice Shelf to collapse, scientists said this week.

Located on the northwestern edge of Ellesmere Island in the territory of Nunavut, Milne was the country's last intact ice shelf in its Arctic.

Ice analyst Adrienne White of the Canadian Ice Service noted that satellite photos pointed to about 43% of the ice shelf having broken off and the rupture likely happened between July 30 or 31.

The large ice platform, which was 4,000 years old, broke apart into two giant icebergs and several other smaller ones, which have already started drifting away, White said.....

https://www.dw.com/en/canadas-last-a...ing/a-54493275

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Surprised nobody noted this here:

Well the trolls keep telling us it's all irrelevant and can be mitigated. So....