PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[eixample]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

If I didn't know the title on this blog, I would assume the Philadelphia sub-forum was populated by car-dependent suburbanites with hard ons for Skyscrapers with no actual interest in how the most vibrant cities actual function.

Making the case that 8th & Market couldn't handle 19K people steps from a subway, a regional rail system, a trolley, 2 highways, and hundreds of blocks of a street grid that emanate out from the facility but yet somehow a facility on Packer Avenue a mile plus from a single subway could is the literal definition of stupidity.

It's exhausting.

The Barclays Center has proven that on top of transit is exactly where you want your arena to be.

I just want skyscrapers (or mid-rises) full of people, offices, and hotels to go at 8th and Market and these other development sites we're discussing. And I also want more parking lots and garages near these sites to be developed into residential, office, commercial, hotels... I don't want the parking lots or garages to be preserved because they have another big source of revenue (games and concerts) on top of the commuters and conventioneers.

There weren't many parking garages or lots near the Barclays Center site before it was built and land prices were high (I think this is right?) so there was probably little reason for developers to demolish existing buildings to build garages. Plus, the transit mode share in NYC is light years better than ours. I don't think it is dumb commentary to question where sports fans and concertgoers are going to park (because a lot of them will, especially until SEPTA gets their head out of their asses and starts dramatically improving off-peak regional rail headways).

Anyway, my real question regarding the Barclays Center and other in-city arenas is whether, assuming the arena wasn't built and the same general development trends, would the neighborhood have been better off than it would without the arena? I realize others laud the knock-on effects of building an arena and how they "seamlessly" fit into the neighborhood surroundings, but I'm still wedded to the idea that the answer to that counterfactual question I posed is yes, those neighborhoods would have developed into better neighborhoods without the arena, especially on those dead off-nights. (I realize that the Barclays Center was part of a railyard mega-development, but that just adds to my point that it isn't such a great comparison to 8th and Market.)

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

If I didn't know the title on this blog, I would assume the Philadelphia sub-forum was populated by car-dependent suburbanites with hard ons for Skyscrapers with no actual interest in how the most vibrant cities actual function.

Making the case that 8th & Market couldn't handle 19K people steps from a subway, a regional rail system, a trolley, 2 highways, and hundreds of blocks of a street grid that emanate out from the facility but yet somehow a facility on Packer Avenue a mile plus from a single subway could is the literal definition of stupidity.

It's exhausting.

The Barclays Center has proven that on top of transit is exactly where you want your arena to be.

I'm glad someone finally said it!

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

I'm glad someone finally said it!

I actually left something out. It's TWO regional rail systems if you include PATCO. And neither requires a transfer (to the subway) no less.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

I'm glad someone finally said it!

Yeah the whole convo is a bit eye-rolling. All-Over-Town has indicated that they want a Center City arena - something some of us forumers (yours truly) have been suggesting will happen as an inevitability the moment HBE bought the team 10 years ago.

And it makes sense. Unlike other sports, basketball is more of an event. In a big market like Philly, a random game on a Tuesday night could feature a few celebs courtside. Sitting within a few rows of the court is something of a status symbol and it attracts that type of money. NBA players as a whole are much bigger celebrities and influencers and showmen. The whole sport is more of theater (they even light the court now like a theater) and theater belongs in the core of cities. Dinner at Vernick or Zahav or Volver, then lower level seats to a Sixers/Celtics game on a Wednesday. Comcast clients in town, happy hour at Chops then a walk to Sixers/Heat. Like, this is what is going to happen on a large scale. It's just not the blue collar, union crowd of the Flyers or the tweener, bring your kid to work-day vibe of the Phillies.

As one of the few, it seems, actual Center City residents here - I'm all for it - so long as the building's design follows urbanist principles.

[Frontst17]

Since you’re clearly very out of touch with the Philadelphia sports landscape your opinion is noted but ignored

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Since you’re clearly very out of touch with the Philadelphia sports landscape your opinion is noted but ignored

The existing Philadelphia sports landscape does not include a Center City arena. Not sure what your point is.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Since you’re clearly very out of touch with the Philadelphia sports landscape your opinion is noted but ignored

Believe it or not, there are Philly sports fans who don't live in the suburbs.

[Frontst17]

I wasn’t saying they were all from the suburbs. And I think it would be cool to have an arena in center city. All I said was Londondee didn’t know what he was talking about as far as the fan base demographics. 8th and market would be the best location of it wasn’t the best location for about a dozen other more useful things. 30th street would be great but I think their plans are more set in stone. Since Harris must have it in center city the argument for keeping it with the others is moot but none of the teams have a problem with transportation or attracting a wealthy fan base. I think the use of buses and subways is being understated here (even Uber). Personally I’ve already seen less people from the suburbs willing to make the trip but more mostly younger people with money to burn going to the games. I think it’s a positive

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Because of the run up to the BF Bridge the closest subway stop is half a mile from the waterfront and the closest off ramp off of 676 is a mile away. And that's a straight path to the river where the aquarium and brand new office buildings already exist. Actual distances would be longer.

It's not as convenient as you'd think. And the area is about as devoid of culture and filled with parking lots as the stadium complex is.

It's a lateral move at best, a negative move even in the eyes of most.

And again, a big part of this is non basketball events, which their research indicates that a downtown location would give them a leg up in the battle with wells fargo. If they move to Camden waterfront they're just one of two area arenas in cultureless parking lot seas and one of two 20,000 seat concert venues on the Camden waterfront.

They're not moving to Camden.

What non basketball events are we talking about? There are, what, maybe a couple dozen concerts a year? What am I missing?

Personally, I would attend many more Sixers games at a CC arena. Having lived in Boston I understand what huge difference it makes when an arena/ballpark is really part of the city. The energy on game nights would be great, but if the thing is going to sit empty 300 nights a year...

[summersm343]

Proposal for 400-Unit Conversion of International House in West Philly


http://www.rising.realestate/wp-cont...Rendering.jpeg


http://www.rising.realestate/wp-cont...ndering-1.jpeg


http://www.rising.realestate/wp-cont...ndering-2.jpeg

More than a year ago, we let you know that the International House at 3701 Chestnut St. in University City was up for sale. The 14-story Brutalist building, constructed between 1968 and 1970, was most recently used as a dorm for international students, some UPenn offices, and the Lightbox Film Center.

We hadn’t heard much about the property over the last year until a few days ago. CSC Co-Living, a co-living company out of New York City, has secured a $33 million loan for the acquisition and rehabilitation of the International House. CSC Co-Living plans on converting the building into 400 residential units plus commercial space.

Project renderings show a modern tower addition on the northern, Ludlow St. side of the property. Renderings show a grocery store built on the southern, Chestnut St. side of the property where there is currently a plaza. This addition will make the building meet the street better than the currently set back structure.. It seems like the project team tried to blend the design of the grocery store addition with the existing building.

Read more here:
http://www.rising.realestate/proposa...n-west-philly/

[summersm343]

PHILADELPHIA | International House Addition | 170 FT | 14 FLOORS

New thread here:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...02#post9053502

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Since you’re clearly very out of touch with the Philadelphia sports landscape your opinion is noted but ignored

The NBA audiences skews younger, richer, more diverse, more educated and more liberal. These are general demo trends that you can google for yourself. I used to produce content for NBC Sports, so i know a bit about this subject.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Justin7

What non basketball events are we talking about? There are, what, maybe a couple dozen concerts a year? What am I missing?

MSG, for example, hosts 320 events a year. TD Garden in Boston hosts over 200. If you account around 80ish of those between NBA/NHL youi're still looking at potentially 100-200 additional events on the calendar. I think part of the idea of a CC arena would be to optimize this potential.

[summersm343]

Philadelphia PA - 46th street station by kyle ortiz, on Flickr

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Londonee

MSG, for example, hosts 320 events a year. TD Garden in Boston hosts over 200. If you account around 80ish of those between NBA/NHL youi're still looking at potentially 100-200 additional events on the calendar. I think part of the idea of a CC arena would be to optimize this potential.

Those numbers really need to be broken down to be comparable, but MSG is really in it's own category.

[philly_account12]

Originally Posted by Justin7

What non basketball events are we talking about? There are, what, maybe a couple dozen concerts a year? What am I missing?

A lot apparently. In 2018 the Wells Fargo center was the 7th busiest arena in the world (4th in NA).

In 2018, the Philadelphia sports and entertainment venue hosted a record number events, including: 51 concerts, six WWE events, highlighted by a sold-out Royal Rumble weekend, and a 22-show Disney on Ice run. Impressively, the Wells Fargo Center remained open throughout phase III of an extensive multi-year redesign, hosting a grand total of 2.6 million fans when you factor in attendance for events featuring the Philadelphia Flyers, 76ers, Soul and Villanova basketball.

Obviously they won't have the Flyers/Soul games but a center city arena would be first in line for everything else.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Those numbers really need to be broken down to be comparable, but MSG is really in it's own category.

Not by as much as you'd think. Areas do a lot more than the marque events (major sports and concerts). It's strange times, but Wells Fargo is hosting Jurassic Quest currently, but otherwise, there are season ticket holder and corporate/university events, career fairs and more. There's a lot.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Not by as much as you'd think. Areas do a lot more than the marque events (major sports and concerts). It's strange times, but Wells Fargo is hosting Jurassic Quest currently, but otherwise, there are season ticket holder and corporate/university events, career fairs and more. There's a lot.

Yea the projection I saw was 150 non sports related events a year by year 3. And no idea if there are concrete plans for this, or if it was just something that was being considered, but schedule projections also included a new Philadelphia sports team that would occupy 20-30 dates a year.

So sitting empty 300 nights year as Justin7 predicted is very much out of line with what they expect. The new arena would have something going more often than not even by their most pessimistic projections.

[SEFTA]

When I moved to NY I first lived a block from Madison Square Garden. When the event let out it was a bit of a nightmare. Particularly after concerts

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by philly_account12

Obviously they won't have the Flyers/Soul games

Well no one will have Soul games...