VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

What? That is not what a white elephant is. HFR is the opposite (as planned at least). It is intended to provide the maximum benefit to users for the minimum cost, within the maximum budget that is politically sellable.

A white elephant would be something very expensive that is useless. Like spending money implementing inferior rail services where buses would adequately serve demand, with better service quality.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What?? A white elephant isn't the most efficient allocation of funds based on the outcome of detailed cost-benefit analyses?

If it does not increase the speed of the trip like Via is saying, then it will indeed be a white elephant.

[Nouvellecosse]

Keep in mind that much of the benefit to HFR isn't increases in the scheduled speeds, but rather in the observed speeds by preventing delays and disruptions from other rail traffic.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Keep in mind that much of the benefit to HFR isn't increases in the scheduled speeds, but rather in the observed speeds by preventing delays and disruptions from other rail traffic.

So, perception, not actual... Then it even more falls under white elephant category. See, if you had stuck with the schedule speeds being the real thing, then it might not be as perception is something that a white elephant project tries to capitalize on.

The SRT is a white elephant as it was used to try to show how something could be done, but not actually show it in it's grandeur. For example, the ICTS can be automated, but the SRT did not do that. The guideway was not built for future rolling stock. The Skytrain, on the other hand is not a white elephant as it utilizes everything to ensure it is successful. They are planning to replace the SRT, which makes it even more a white elephant.

HFR will need to be rebuilt in sections to straighten it to get higher speeds.
Strike 1.

HFR will not speed anything up by much.
Strike 2

HFR Does not hit any major existing stations outside of their termini
Strike 3.

HFR does not hit any major urban areas except Peterborough.
Strike 4

HFR will become obsolete if the province or Via decided to pursue HSR, as the Lakeshore route is better suited to complement a HSR route.
Strike 5

The only benefit for HFR will be once it leave the CP Agincourt Yard, it can run uninterrupted to Ottawa. It will not be a miracle cure, but a bandaid solution.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, perception, not actual... Then it even more falls under white elephant category. See, if you had stuck with the schedule speeds being the real thing, then it might not be as perception is something that a white elephant project tries to capitalize on.

No, he said the opposite of how you are portraying it. Scheduled speeds are the theory, observed speeds are the reality. HFR will make both better.

Honestly, it seems like every time we manage to convince you to change your opinion on something, you regress on some other issue.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

No, he said the opposite of how you are portraying it. Scheduled speeds are the theory, observed speeds are the reality. HFR will make both better.

Honestly, it seems like every time we manage to convince you to change your opinion on something, you regress on some other issue.

I 'regress' as I seem to find flaws with things. So, in other words, I am looking for the drawbacks of everything. I m not suggesting HFR should be scrapped, but the way some tout it, it is like a cure all for for all the problems with Via. It isn't. It is a quick fix to one issue in one area.

[Nouvellecosse]

I don't think some of those "strikes" are accurate. The main purpose of HFR is to improve overall service between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, primarily by allowing more trips which gives consumers more options and improving speed and reliability to reducing both scheduled and unscheduled delays. Accomplishing those things will require a number of track improvements with some directly speed related but most because of the high frequency and simple state of repair. It doesn't need to significantly increase speed in order to significantly improve the passenger experience.

The plan is also beneficial to communities on the existing corridor because it allows the route to be divided into shorter segments such as Toronto-Kingston, Kingston-Ottawa and Kingston-Montreal which makes scheduling easier and prevents delays that happen on one segment from affecting the others.

Also, the existing lakeshore corridor is not a great candidate for HSR because HSR isn't meant for routes with frequent stops. HSR trains have a high stop speed but not fast acceleration so a route with lots of intermediate stops doesn't work well. Looking at Acela in the US northeast corridor for instance, there is both local and express service and the local service uses regular electric locomotives pulling standard carriages. Only the express route which bypasses most of the stops uses the sleek higher speed trainsets, So the express route may as well be somewhere else for all it benefits most of the communities on the route. Plus, HSR generally doesn't allow for any at-grade crossings for safety reasons so the much more densely populated Lakeshore corridor route would need a very costly rebuilt if ever upgraded to HSR.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, perception, not actual... Then it even more falls under white elephant category. See, if you had stuck with the schedule speeds being the real thing, then it might not be as perception is something that a white elephant project tries to capitalize on.

The SRT is a white elephant as it was used to try to show how something could be done, but not actually show it in it's grandeur. For example, the ICTS can be automated, but the SRT did not do that. The guideway was not built for future rolling stock. The Skytrain, on the other hand is not a white elephant as it utilizes everything to ensure it is successful. They are planning to replace the SRT, which makes it even more a white elephant.

What is the SRT and what does it have to do with VIA Rail (the topic of this thread)?

HFR will need to be rebuilt in sections to straighten it to get higher speeds.

Maybe. We will have to see the HFR plans and the route they would pick for HSR.

HFR will not speed anything up by much.

Montreal-Ottawa: 1:58 -> 1:33 (reduction of 21%)
Ottawa-Toronto: 4:24 -> 3:15 (reduction 26%)
Quebec City-Montreal: 3:21 -> 2:10 (reduction of 35%)

On top of that, increased frequency means far less time waiting for your train.

HFR Does not hit any major existing stations outside of their termini

Its termini are Toronto and Quebec City. So you don't think Montreal and Ottawa are major existing stations?

HFR does not hit any major urban areas except Peterborough.

What are Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City?

HFR will become obsolete if the province or Via decided to pursue HSR, as the Lakeshore route is better suited to complement a HSR route.

How so? Most jurisdictions with HSR also have inter-city service.

The only benefit for HFR will be once it leave the CP Agincourt Yard, it can run uninterrupted to Ottawa. It will not be a miracle cure, but a bandaid solution.

No one is saying it is a miracle cure. It is a step in the right direction. Far better than yet another HSR study that will never get built because of the sticker shock.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I don't think some of those "strikes" are accurate. The main purpose of HFR is to improve overall service between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, primarily by allowing more trips which gives consumers more options and improving speed and reliability to reducing both scheduled and unscheduled delays. Accomplishing those things will require a number of track improvements with some directly speed related but most because of the high frequency and simple state of repair. It doesn't need to significantly increase speed in order to significantly improve the passenger experience.

Yes, between the CP Agincourt Yard and Ottawa, the delays will be a minimum. That doesn't change the fact you are going through one of the largest freight yards in the area. That yard could cause some delays; the very thing you are trying to avoid.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The plan is also beneficial to communities on the existing corridor because it allows the route to be divided into shorter segments such as Toronto-Kingston, Kingston-Ottawa and Kingston-Montreal which makes scheduling easier and prevents delays that happen on one segment from affecting the others.

I realize that, however, they will get less service. It will still be delayed by the freight trains as it is now.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Also, the existing lakeshore corridor is not a great candidate for HSR because HSR isn't meant for routes with frequent stops. HSR trains have a high stop speed but not fast acceleration so a route with lots of intermediate stops doesn't work well. Looking at Acela in the US northeast corridor for instance, there is both local and express service and the local service uses regular electric locomotives pulling standard carriages. Only the express route which bypasses most of the stops uses the sleek higher speed trainsets, So the express route may as well be somewhere else for all it benefits most of the communities on the route. Plus, HSR generally doesn't allow for any at-grade crossings for safety reasons so the much more densely populated Lakeshore corridor route would need a very costly rebuilt if ever upgraded to HSR.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't assume the Lakeshore will be where HSR will be built. What my assumptions are is that once HSR is built, the Lakeshore line will be the non HSR feeder line that Via keeps.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it does not increase the speed of the trip like Via is saying, then it will indeed be a white elephant.

What are you on about? VIA has never said they were trying to increase speed. They specifically called it "High Frequency Rail" to draw attention to the key feature of the project: higher frequencies. Before that it was called the "Dedicated Tracks Project". Speed is an ancillary benefit of getting freight traffic out of the way. The primary benefit of this project will be very frequent service. Hourly service is almost like having GO service between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

Honestly, this looks like you're trolling now. Trying to bring back this useless thread from the dead.

[swimmer_spe]

First off, I should clarify that the HFR I mean is the one between Peterborough and Smith Falls.

Originally Posted by roger1818

What is the SRT and what does it have to do with VIA Rail (the topic of this thread)?

The SRT is a RT in Toronto. It was a provincial government initiative that was labeled as the future of transit for the world. It ended up to be an expensive flop that is planned to be replaced if the current provincial government has their way. It shows a good example of a white elephant. It shows what happens when the government tries sell the voters on something that will not perform as advertised.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Maybe. We will have to see the HFR plans and the route they would pick for HSR.

Right now, the trackbed is to sharp to maintain 90mph or greater. That means that even with all the changes to the track and the crossings, the train cannot travel at it's highest speed. I am not suggesting HSR trains.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Montreal-Ottawa: 1:58 -> 1:33 (reduction of 21%)
Ottawa-Toronto: 4:24 -> 3:15 (reduction 26%)
Quebec City-Montreal: 3:21 -> 2:10 (reduction of 35%)

On top of that, increased frequency means far less time waiting for your train.

Maybe the project you know of is not the one I know of. The only HFR project I have been hearing of would be between Toronto and Ottawa.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Its termini are Toronto and Quebec City. So you don't think Montreal and Ottawa are major existing stations?

The termini are Toronto and Ottawa. The rest are outside the area.

Originally Posted by roger1818

What are Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City?

Citiees within the Corridor, but outside of the planned HFR.

Originally Posted by roger1818

How so? Most jurisdictions with HSR also have inter-city service.

And that will be along the lakeshore. the one between Peterborough and Smith Falls will likely drop to service like the route to Sarnia as there isn't much population. Or does population no longer matter?

Originally Posted by roger1818

No one is saying it is a miracle cure. It is a step in the right direction. Far better than yet another HSR study that will never get built because of the sticker shock.

Then state what it actually will be, not blow smoke up our.....

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, between the CP Agincourt Yard and Ottawa, the delays will be a minimum. That doesn't change the fact you are going through one of the largest freight yards in the area. That yard could cause some delays; the very thing you are trying to avoid.

The CPR Toronto Yard in Agincourt was once busy, but Hunter Harrison closed it as a hump and classification yard after he became CEO of Canadian Pacific in 2012. There are a bunch of storage tracks, but the center of the yard has had its tracks removed.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What are you on about? VIA has never said they were trying to increase speed. They specifically called it "High Frequency Rail" to draw attention to the key feature of the project: higher frequencies. Before that it was called the "Dedicated Tracks Project". Speed is an ancillary benefit of getting freight traffic out of the way. The primary benefit of this project will be very frequent service. Hourly service is almost like having GO service between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

Honestly, this looks like you're trolling now. Trying to bring back this useless thread from the dead.

HFR has been suggested that it will be fast. So fast that everyone will stop flying. If poking holes in those theories makes me a troll, then we are all trolls about something here.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

First off, I should clarify that the HFR I mean is the one between Peterborough and Smith Falls.
...

The termini are Toronto and Ottawa. The rest are outside the area.

From VIA Rail's website:

High Frequency Rail is VIA Rail Canada’s proposal to transform passenger rail service in Canada. It would create new trains on dedicated tracks between major centres (Québec City-Montréal-Ottawa-Toronto).

It doesn't help you argument if you don't have your facts straight.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

From VIA Rail's website:
It doesn't help you argument if you don't have your facts straight.

Thank you for educating me.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

HFR has been suggested that it will be fast. So fast that everyone will stop flying.

None of that came from VIA itself. Some of us are smart enough to look at the leaked travel times and extrapolate. We can see where the time savings will be negligible enough for air travel, in specific city pairs, that some travelers might choose rail offer air. Nobody said, "everyone will stop flying". That's your shitty strawman.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If poking holes in those theories makes me a troll, then we are all trolls about something here.

You aren't poking holes so much as resurrecting a dead thread to get some attention, and arguing from a position of ignorance, building strawmen on the same. That's what makes you a troll.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

HFR has been suggested that it will be fast. So fast that everyone will stop flying. If poking holes in those theories makes me a troll, then we are all trolls about something here.

There might be some who choose to take the train instead of fly, but that isn't the purpose of HFR. It is optimized to compete with travelling by car. As Yves Desjardins-Siciliano (VIA's former CEO) said in the Winer 2016 issue of Interchange:

Today, 87 per cent of travel between Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal is by car, six per cent is by plane and five per cent is by train. Desjardins-Siciliano thinks a dedicated passenger-rail track between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal is the only way to increase the rail’s share over the car.

Why try and compete for the airline's 6% of the market when you have 87% ripe for the picking with highway traffic getting worse and worse.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, perception, not actual... Then it even more falls under white elephant category. See, if you had stuck with the schedule speeds being the real thing, then it might not be as perception is something that a white elephant project tries to capitalize on.

The SRT is a white elephant as it was used to try to show how something could be done, but not actually show it in it's grandeur. For example, the ICTS can be automated, but the SRT did not do that. The guideway was not built for future rolling stock. The Skytrain, on the other hand is not a white elephant as it utilizes everything to ensure it is successful. They are planning to replace the SRT, which makes it even more a white elephant.

HFR will need to be rebuilt in sections to straighten it to get higher speeds.
Strike 1.

HFR will not speed anything up by much.
Strike 2

HFR Does not hit any major existing stations outside of their termini
Strike 3.

HFR does not hit any major urban areas except Peterborough.
Strike 4

HFR will become obsolete if the province or Via decided to pursue HSR, as the Lakeshore route is better suited to complement a HSR route.
Strike 5

The only benefit for HFR will be once it leave the CP Agincourt Yard, it can run uninterrupted to Ottawa. It will not be a miracle cure, but a bandaid solution.

If anything, this just speaks to the sad state of passenger rail in this country, that we have to spend billions of dollars just to begin catching up with Europe and have somewhat reliable and convenient service on a SINGLE route. All the more reason to do it.

[Truenorth00]

VIA is indefinitely postponing restart of The Canadian and The Ocean.

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wir...ocean-canadian

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

If anything, this just speaks to the sad state of passenger rail in this country, that we have to spend billions of dollars just to begin catching up with Europe and have somewhat reliable and convenient service on a SINGLE route. All the more reason to do it.

I don't disagree. I think I have said this before though, but someone once told me, "The best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago but the second best time is today." Rather than focus on how bad things are today, lets work towards fixing them for tomorrow.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

VIA is indefinitely postponing restart of The Canadian and The Ocean.

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wir...ocean-canadian

I think this is due to the Atlantic Bubble and the fact that anyone east of Terrace Bay cannot visit MB without self isolating for 14 days.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't disagree. I think I have said this before though, but someone once told me, "The best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago but the second best time is today." Rather than focus on how bad things are today, lets work towards fixing them for tomorrow.

So, lets get on getting something started today.