Centre Plan

[IanWatson]

It's official, Centre Plan is under way!

www.centreplan.ca

[IanWatson]

The Centre Plan kickoff event is tonight (Monday) at Alderney Landing in Dartmouth in the farmers market space. It's an open house (drop-in any time) format from 6-9pm.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

The Centre Plan kickoff event is tonight (Monday) at Alderney Landing in Dartmouth in the farmers market space. It's an open house (drop-in any time) format from 6-9pm.

See you there.
I have my list of 'wants' :

- HRM to purchase Brightwood for park and open space
- Density bonusing restricted to cash for local use and low income housing
- Right to light
- Development to target families in support of existing schools

And I have almost finished a review of residential sales in Metro in the $450,000 - $2,000,000 range from January 1 2012 to March 19 2016.

[IanWatson]

Probably should have mentioned this earlier, but HRM is currently hosting Centre Plan neighbourhood workshops. The ones in Dartmouth were Monday and Tuesday (I think I saw Colin there last night).

The open house in March was a kick-off event intended to introduce the project. These upcoming meetings are actual workshops with the intent of actually getting down to the nuts and bolts of what matters/what should be done in our neighbourhoods.

Upcoming workshops include Thursday the 5th at the St. Mary's Boat Club, and Wednesday the 11th at the Forum. There are two workshops on each of those days, at 1pm and 6pm.

[Hali87]

Just a reminder to anyone interested that there's a CP workshop going on at Saint Mary's Boat Club this evening at 6.

[Keith P.]

Giving this a bump in order to discuss the document released which is found here:

Centre Plan

A quick read seems to lead one to conclude that the NIMBYs and anti-tall building forces have once again had their way. Nothing over 20 storeys anywhere, as I read it, with even those areas severely limited. The usual cycling BS makes its appearance too of course - that seems required by planning dogma these days. Very disappointing.

[musicman]

Well that is a disapointing read....

[worldlyhaligonian]

20 stories is such a weird threshold... it seems like there would be more effective land use at slightly higher, 25-40 range.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

20 stories is such a weird threshold... it seems like there would be more effective land use at slightly higher, 25-40 range.

But those would be TOO TALL!!!

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But those would be TOO TALL!!!

why do we need tall? besides stroking some developers ego.
why is it desirable? how is 30 stories so much better then 20?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

why do we need tall? besides stroking some developers ego.
why is it desirable? how is 30 stories so much better then 20?

Let me flip the question: why is 20 so much better for a city than 30?

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

why do we need tall? besides stroking some developers ego.
why is it desirable? how is 30 stories so much better then 20?

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I'm more bothered that there's virtually nothing in here about heritage conservation, nor about the rampant lot consolidation that threatens to create big, bulky, anti-urban streetwalls (and often eliminate a lot of non-heritage but nonetheless historic building stock).

As far as height, I'm sure we haven't seen the end of 20+ storey buildings in Halifax. And as has been pointed out often, we already have a whole lot for a city of this size. Urbanity is not very well correlated with tallness. I care about having an urban city, not a tall city, so...whatever.

Dry, I'm surprised to see you say this re: height. You've yourself acknowledged (and as has been said on here before) most of the peninsula is very low density residential housing. So, if we actually want a lively vibrant core and peninsula over the long term, there needs to be some places where very high density buildings can be proposed to maintain sufficient density to sustain a lively and vibrant core and areas.

We are never going to be Paris. We simply do not have the density in our standard stock of housing.

The same people on here who preach for flexibility in planning documents are fine with a stupid maximum height of 20 stories for anywhere outside the HRMxD zone? Ludicrous.

For instance, we always talked on here about the Cogswell Exchange being the perfect area to allow some legitimate skyscrapers -- the kind that can't happen downtown because of viewplanes/ramparts, everything, and now HRMxD.

But Cogswell, outside HRMxD and viewplane limits, was the perfect place. Even Waye supported this idea.

Well, that idea is smashed by this anti-height Centre Plan.

Spring Garden further up near Robie is another area ripe for taller buildings, to meet student and otherwise housing demands. Now there is literally a block and a half where 20 stories are allowed. The rest far lower.

And where did they get 20 stories as the ideal height max limit? There's absolutely no justification for it in the document anywhere. Did they just pull it out of the air?

I like the idea of pedestrian-first in the Centre Plan, but the height limits are very short sighted, but not totally unexpected from a very pro-NIMBY Halifax planning staff.

Halifax is one of the few reasonable housing markets left in the country for cities. Well, this Centre Plan aims to change that! Lock in existing communities/neighborhoods. Deter high density housing/development. The property owners will be happy, that's for sure! Shame.

[portapetey]

I would very much like to see a smattering of 30ish story buildings around the peninsula to add some variety to the skyline; a number of current proposals in this range look good to me and I hope they go forward.

I think 40+ stories is unrealistic to expect in a city of this size.

But, food for thought - in terms of creating a dense, more urban feel for the city overall, what's better? Two 15-story or 3 10-story buildings, or a single 30 story building?

I like tall buildings, but I feel like "tall" is Halifax's "monorail" - "oh, if we just have a few 40 story buildings, we'll be in the big leagues. We'll be on the map! We won't be a backwater any more!" Well, no, not really - we'll still be a small, isolated city of 350K with an admittedly impressive skyline for a small, isolated city of 350K.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by portapetey

But, food for thought - in terms of creating a dense, more urban feel for the city overall, what's better? Two 15-story or 3 10-story buildings, or a single 30 story building?

This is the nub of the issue. Centre Plan is designed to accommodate 40% of the growth that happens in HRM over the next 15 years (estimated to be 33,000 new people in the Regional Centre). HRM can stick that growth in a couple of very tall buildings, or it can spread it around to create reinvestment in a bunch of areas in the Regional Centre.

Also worth noting, the downtowns could still accommodate 20+ storey buildings.

[portapetey]

Would the adoption of the new Centre Plan affect / quash some of the current proposals for taller buildings - e.g. the Robie & Quinpool, Spring Garden & Robie, or the signature tower at King's Wharf? All those seem to have pretty good support here.

(Sorry, too lazy to go read it myself.)

There's also that one over by SMU but that seems to be pretty much universally condemned.

[Hali87]

So far I'm pretty happy with the direction the Centre Plan is going - I like the distinction between "centres" and "corridors" and the customized approach to each centre. It's also nice to see the intent to intensify the areas around the malls and places like Highfield Park, although I might actually have prioritized this a bit more.

20 storeys does seem like an arbitrary height limit (actually it's even more arbitrary than that: 16-20). I'm fine with this and would also have been fine with 30, each has its trade-offs, but 20 would ultimately be less contentious and would almost definitely result in the Plan actually being put in place sooner. For the record, "what the skyline will look like" is not really a factor that is being considered here - if that's a priority for you, I'd suggest communicating this to city staff, because it hasn't really come up at all and probably isn't even on their radar at this point.

I'm also concerned with the lack of details on things like lot consolidation and heritage preservation though, and I'd hope for a clearer vision on things like transit oriented development.

Note also that the current goal is for 40% of population growth to occur in the Regional Centre vs. the original 25%.

[Keith P.]

Copenhagen looks like a hell-hole. Imagine having to deal with all those damn cyclists.

[Hali87]

The map includes a small section of one side of Cogswell Street, not the part that's being redeveloped.

Page 4 places the Cogswell Interchange in Downtown Halifax, and basically says that a plan for that will come later What ideas are being smashed here?

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Hali87

The map includes a small section of one side of Cogswell Street, not the part that's being redeveloped.

Page 4 places the Cogswell Interchange in Downtown Halifax, and basically says that a plan for that will come later What ideas are being smashed here?

Yes, there's still a possibility that they'll allow for taller buildings, literally right where the interchange is presently standing, but they've completely boxed in and narrowed this area with this Plan, undermining any kind of additional high density expansion, either to the north or west (to the east you are banked by the water).

Look at Figure 1 on page 3-- the Interchange itself is covered by the "downtown" area, but it is banked on pretty much every side, preventing any kind of expansion. The "Gottingen Centre" extends down past Brunswick, so there is not expansion on the other side of Cogswell. And then there is more "established residential" banking the Cogswell Interchange area just to the north.

On this Centre Plan, there is literally ONE area designated for higher density development, and that is the purple area that is essentially the HRMxD zone, but this is worst, because it narrows even that development zone (there are no dark purple areas around SGR, if you notice). There are no more "downtown" areas beyond a small chunk in Halifax by the water, which is already regulated to death when it comes to height and development by viewplanes/ramparts, and a few blocks on the Dartmouth side.

Even around Quinnpool, a "Centre" under the plan, allows 20 stories as a max limit, and even that max height is only allowed in like TWO parcels of land (at Quinnpool and Robie) where there are already tall buildings, and nowhere else. Thus, no chance for new taller buildings in this area beyond these two parcels where there are already buildings. Absolutely Ludicrous.

[Colin May]

Existing height precinct peninsula Halifax :
http://www.region.halifax.ns.ca/plan...mber2014to.pdf

Other suitable links on this page : http://www.region.halifax.ns.ca/plan...axPlanArea.php