Paris, museum city

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Mercutio, better known as Monkey on another forum, busy trolling and bashing Paris. What's new!

And Brisovoine making absurd claims for Paris and bashing London! What's new?

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Personal opinion is not the same as proven fact.

Doesn't Oxford Street do more trade than any other shopping centre in Europe? That is a proven fact. However since I was responding to a mere personal opinion from Metropolitan then it's a little unfair to expect me to provide facts when he did not.

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Err... no. That would be La Défense. It was already shown in previous threads that it has a higher floor space and daytime population density than la City de Londres.

I don't remember you proving anything of the sort. You can try though.

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Claiming something without a source or reference, how convenient. One could also claim that Glasgow is more lively than London then. Why not.

Sorry but I have an opinion onthe matter and I responding to mere opinions of others.

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Personal opinion is not the same as proven fact.

Actually the relative performance of different financial centres is supported by reams of facts. Those figures would support the view that Paris has gained on Frankfurt but fallen further behind London - and also that Hong Kong is probably more important financial centre than Paris. Last year the value of Hong Kong's IPOs were more valuable than New York's - second only to London.

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Nice try, but again it was already shown in previous threads that the Eastern/Southeastern Asian community is larger in Paris than in London. At the 2001 UK census there were 135,000 residents of Greater London who were born in Eastern and Southeastern Asia (http://www.london.gov.uk/gla/publica...te-2006-09.pdf). In Greater Paris in 2005 there were 208,000 immigrants from Eastern and Southeastern Asia (http://www.insee.fr/fr/recensement/n...s-immigres.xls), a figure which does not include 20,500 colonial citizens from French Indochina who were granted French citizenship at birth in Indochina and are therefore not counted as immigrants by French statistics.

You got destroyed in that argument. I didn't have to do anything as JGG did it all for me.

London's Chinese population alone was offically estimated at more than 100,000 back in mid-2004 (and official estimates in Britain are notoriously conservative ):
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBas...asp?vlnk=14238

London's Filipino population is also more than 100,000 according to the Philippine Embassy in London:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...United_Kingdom)

And 50,000 Koreans in Britain now - almost all of them London:
http://www.mofat.go.kr/mofat/mk_a006...89818_634.html

In reality the Chinese population is obviously much larger than on UK census estimates. It's definitely much larger than the number of Filipinos and more than double the population of Koreans. China is investing more in London than any other city in Europe which generates a continuous flow of business people in addition to the permanent population. This site estimates some 80,000-100,000 Chinese students in Britain - and all this in addition to the established and permanent community:
http://www.linkchinese.net/aboutus.php

[Minato Ku]

In an other way INSEE admit that immigration numbers are underrrated and that they don't know the the real numbers especially for chinese immigration.
Paris have a strong chinese community since the 1920's. So most east asian faces in Paris are french born.

But now.. STOP please, Mercurio, Metropolitan Brisavoine and me.

[Mercutio]

^ Ok fair enough. Provided he doesn't come back and try to trash my arguments I'll leave it at that. Some of things we are talking about are way off topic anyway. However what remains is on topic is my continuing bemusement at your showcasing the worst of Paris - the grafitti, ugly buildings, bland new districts etc - simply to overcome supposed stereotypes about Paris. I am aware that some Americans may have a rather dated or limited idea of Paris but I doubt that many Europeans do - nor people that have been there.

[Minato Ku]

Thanks
Many non european forumers see this the european part.

Everyone know some of most beautiful part of Paris (Some other are really unkown like the old chinatown in the 3rd arrondissement) and I had never show ghetto or poor districts, in my photo thread for one reation, I am fearful.

The old chinatown of the 3rd arrondissement it is very interresting, it is like being in the 1930's
Maybe one of most original chinatown, but it is become too quiet most chinese go live in suburbs. (It could also due at the vacation).











The same district in the 1930's

Picture form a video

[Mercutio]

^ You call these places "chinatowns" but they have about 10 restaurants if you're lucky. Sorry but I'm not so impressed. London and Liverpool both claim to have had the first chinatowns in Europe dating from the mid C19th. Sherlock Holmes famously used to smoke opium in the original Docklands Chinatown.

[Metropolitan]

Frankly Mercurio, stop complaining about other's life. If Minato Ku likes graffiti and ugly buildings, how is it your problem?

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

In reality the Chinese population is obviously much larger than on UK census estimates.

Typical Londoner's arguement. If the figures don't show London number one, then it's necessarily that the figures are wrong. How convenient.

As Minato Ku already pointed out, if British censuses underestimate the actual number of immigrants, the same is to be expected with French censuses. So I'm afraid your complaint is a bit meaningless here. At the end of the day, official census figures, underestimated on both sides of the Channel, show there are more people from Eastern and Southeastern Asia in Paris than in London.

[Minato Ku]

I am not a big fan of graffity, these are rare in my pictures
It is the Tonio del Barrio style, I prefer the 70's blocks
Mercurio, it is closer than 20th in two little streets.

My tiny municipality (Montrouge, 2km²) has over 10th chinese restaurants and it is far to be a chinatown.

[Minato Ku]

As a fan I must do it.

[Metropolitan]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

As Minato Ku already pointed out, if British censuses underestimate the actual number of immigrants, the same is to be expected with French censuses. So I'm afraid your complaint is a bit meaningless here. At the end of the day, official census figures, underestimated on both sides of the Channel, show there are more people from Eastern and Southeastern Asia in Paris than in London.

Anyway, when I was saying that the 13th arrondissement was the "heart" of the Asian community in Western Europe, it's mainly because I've directly witnessed Asians from Germany, the Netherlands or Belgium who came in Tang frères, Paris stores, and other shops to buy food, dishes, plates and furnitures. I know this because of their license plates. But whatever, I've forgotten that there's no "gate" on avenue de Choisy! That's not a true Chinatown!

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

But whatever, I've forgotten that there's no "gate" on avenue de Choisy! That's not a true Chinatown!

You see, that's exactly the point. Some Londoners like Monkey (aka Mercutio) take great pride in their Chinatown, and try to portray it as something really big and impressive, but in fact London's Chinatown is rather small (barely two streets), and it's completely fake. It's a bit like Montmartre Village, around Place du Tertre, a completely fake touristy area. When I lived in London, all the Chinese Mainlanders I knew hated London's Chinatown. They thought (and I agree with them) that the food there was aweful, and the ambiance fake. It's basically like a theme park, with fake Chinese gates and chinese street names, that catters mostly to a White British clientele with little knownlege of China and Chinese food and culture.

In comparison, Paris 13th arrondissement's Chinatown doesn't have fancy Chinese gates and telephone boots, but it's a real Chinatown, catering to an Eastern Asian population more than to White French people, and with authentic products and food.

But yeah, as you said, it doesn't have the gates, so Monkey can continue to boast.

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by brisavoine

Typical Londoner's arguement. If the figures don't show London number one, then it's necessarily that the figures are wrong. How convenient.

As Minato Ku already pointed out, if British censuses underestimate the actual number of immigrants, the same is to be expected with French censuses. So I'm afraid your complaint is a bit meaningless here. At the end of the day, official census figures, underestimated on both sides of the Channel, show there are more people from Eastern and Southeastern Asia in Paris than in London.

Haha... let's number crunch shall we? Your official data for the Ile de France shows this:
http://www.insee.fr/fr/recensement/n...s-immigres.xls

- 44,000 Chinese
- 37,000 Vietnamese
- 34,000 Cambodians
- 16,000 Laotians
Total = 131,000


You included the 77,000 so called "other Asians" to bring the grand total to 208,000 but there is no indication that these other Asians hail from E/SE Asia. Indeed I suspect most are fromt he Middle East. "Other Asians" is defined merely as "Pays d'Asie autres que Cambodge, Chine, Inde, Laos, Liban, Sri Lanka, Turquie et Viêt-Nam" (ie countries aside from China, India, Laos, Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Turkey, and Vietnam).


Now from the older (2005) estimates from the UK census I get this:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBas...asp?vlnk=14238

- 107,100 Chinese or other ethnic group: Chinese
- 140,100 Chinese or other ethnic group: Other
Total = 247,200

Now I can accept that the "other" on the UK census, though said to be mainly Filipinos and other E/SE Asians, may not be entirely of far eastern origin. But then neither are the 77,000 that you so conveniently counted in with your stats. the only strictly comparable figures we have are 44,000 Chinese in the Ile de France and 107,000 in London.

The Ile de France is of course, a much larger region than London, almost 8 times larger geographically, and about 50% larger by population. To keep comparison strictly fair we should take the Chinese population per ~100,000 population in each:

- Greater London = 1427
- Greater Paris = 383


So per 100,000 there are almost 4 times as many Chinese in London.

If we assume that all in the "other" groups are E/SE Asians (unlikely but it's your choice...) then we get this:

- Greater London = 3296
- Greater Paris = 1809

So based purely on official census data, and completely disregarding figures from the Philippine Embassy in London, how can you sustain your position that there are more E/SE Asians in Paris than London?

[Minato Ku]

• INSEE admit that immigration number are underrated
• It doesn't include the high number of illegal chinese immigrant.
• We said that most east asian are french born.

Actually it is clever to compare London ethnical data with IDF foreign born data since you know that France forbid this..

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Haha... let's number crunch shall we?[...]

You're comparing people born abroad (immigrants) on the one hand (Paris) and people with an ethnicity (i.e. also the children and grandchildren of immigrants) on the other hand (London).

See, that's typically you, comparing apples and pears to "prove" that London is number one.

The real figures I gave in my previous post: at the 2001 UK census there were 135,000 residents of Greater London who were born in Eastern and Southeastern Asia, whereas in Greater Paris in 2005 there were 208,000 residents who were born in Eastern and Southeastern Asia (not even including 20,500 colonial citizens from French Indochina who were granted French citizenship at birth in Indochina and are therefore not counted as immigrants by French statistics).

Originally Posted by Mercutio

You included the 77,000 so called "other Asians" to bring the grand total to 208,000 but there is no indication that these other Asians hail from E/SE Asia. Indeed I suspect most are fromt he Middle East.

No, these 77,000 people are essentially from Eastern and Southeastern Asia (essentially Korea, Japan and the Philippines). If "most are from the Middle East" as you claim, then I'd be curious to know from which country. Turks and Lebanese are already counted appart as you've already found out, so they can't come from there. In France there are almost no immigrants from Iraq, Jordan and Israel, and very few from Syria, Iran and the Arabic peninsula. But perhaps there's a mysterious hidden country in the Middle East that you're aware of.

So let's face it, these 77,000 "other Asians" are mostly Eastern and Southeastern Asians. And in total there are more people from Eastern and Southeastern Asia in Paris than in London.

[Tony]

The hell is this versus stuff? Cut the crap (this means you Mercutio and others) or we'll be handing out some suspensions.

[Mercutio]

^ I think many of your 77,000 are from Iran.

Originally Posted by brisavoine

You see, that's exactly the point. Some Londoners like Monkey (aka Mercutio) take great pride in their Chinatown, and try to portray it as something really big and impressive, but in fact London's Chinatown is rather small (barely two streets), and it's completely fake. It's a bit like Montmartre Village, around Place du Tertre, a completely fake touristy area. When I lived in London, all the Chinese Mainlanders I knew hated London's Chinatown. They thought (and I agree with them) that the food there was aweful, and the ambiance fake. It's basically like a theme park, with fake Chinese gates and chinese street names, that catters mostly to a White British clientele with little knownlege of China and Chinese food and culture.

That's rubbish. Ask Singaporean Admin RafflesCity if London's Chinatown is fake. He lived in London and describes it as very authentic. As someone who regularly travels in China (I came back just last week) I can confirm myself that it's authentic too. It's not white British that shop in the supermarkets, or purchase China medicines or massage/therapies, or crowd out the 100-odd restaurants with whole families on weekends, or who frequent the numerous karaoke bars and hairdressers, or shop for Chinese cakes in the numerous bakeries, or who use the travel agents that advertise only in Chinese. It's London's Chinese. Chinese gates, including non-authentic or modern ones, are found in every city in China. My Taiwanese ex-girlfriend used to meet her friends in Chinatown maybe two or three times a week to eat in the restaurants, drink bubble tea with her friends, and use the karaoke bars. There's no point for anyone else to use them as all the songs are Chinese.

London's Chinatown sprawls over about 10 streets - not two. They are Gerrard Street, Gerrard Place, Lisle Street, Wardour Street, Newport Place, Newport Court, Little Newport Street, Charing Cross Road, Macclesfield Street, Dansey Place, Leicester Street, Leicester Place, Leicester Court, Whitcombe Street, and Shaftesbury Avenue. A map:

Originally Posted by brisavoine

In comparison, Paris 13th arrondissement's Chinatown doesn't have fancy Chinese gates and telephone boots, but it's a real Chinatown, catering to an Eastern Asian population more than to White French people, and with authentic products and food.

So why does it have so many fewer Chinese/Asian restaurants, supermarkets, bakeries, medicine shops, hairdressers, karaoke bars than London's?

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by Tony

The hell is this versus stuff? Cut the crap (this means you Mercutio and others) or we'll be handing out some suspensions.

Oops sorry. I only just read this now. OK we'll stop now.

[brisavoine]

Tony, can you clean the thread of all the Mercutio trolling? I think Minato Ku would appreciate.

[Mercutio]

^ That's fine with me so long as yours and Metropolitan's is cleaned off too.

[Mercutio]

^ That's fine with me so long as yours and Metropolitan's is cleaned off too.