U.S urban area population rankings? Please explain

[RumbleFish]

I do not understand why San Francisco/ San Jose are not considered the same urban area when the build up between the two cities is very consistent. I do not understand why the New York City or Chicago's Urban area covers so much area but Los Angeles does not include San Bernadino/Riverside. Has anybody visited Boston and San Francisco and felt that metro Boston felt bigger than the Bay area? Does Philadelphia really feel like it is in the same size as the Miami metro area? Is this a conspiracy?


Urban Areas of the United States of America
1 New York--Newark, NY—NJ--CT 18,351,295 8,936.0 3,450.2 2,053.6 5,318.9
2 Los Angeles--Long Beach--Anaheim, CA 12,150,996 4,496.3 1,736.0 2,702.5 6,999.3
3 Chicago--Gary, IL—IN 8,608,208 6,326.7 2,442.8 1,360.6 3,524.0
4 Miami, FL 5,502,379 3,208.0 1,238.6 1,715.2 4,442.4
5 Philadelphia, PA—NJ--DE—MD 5,441,567 5,131.7 1,981.4 1,060.4 2,746.4
6 Dallas--Fort Worth--Arlington, TX 5,121,892 4,607.9 1,779.1 1,111.5 2,878.9
7 Houston, TX 4,944,332 4,299.4 1,660.0 1,150.0 2,978.5
8 Washington, DC—VA--MD 4,586,770 3,423.3 1,321.7 1,339.9 3,470.3
9 Atlanta, GA 4,515,419 6,851.4 2,645.4 659.0 1,706.9
10 Boston, MA—NH--RI 4,181,019 4,852.2 1,873.5 861.7 2,231.7
11 Detroit, MI 3,734,090 3,463.2 1,337.2 1,078.2 2,792.5
12 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ 3,629,114 2,969.6 1,146.6 1,222.1 3,165.2
13 San Francisco--Oakland, CA 3,281,212 1,356.2 523.6 2,419.5 6,266.4
14 Seattle, WA 3,059,393 2,616.7 1,010.3 1,169.2 3,028.2
15 San Diego, CA 2,956,746 1,896.9 732.4 1,558.7 4,037.0

[summersm343]

Philadelphia is MUCH more built up and MUCH more urban for a longer stretch than Miami could ever dream to be. The fact that they even consider Miami larger in urban area is the conspiracy if you ask me. Urban areas are the urbanized parts of metros. Since San Francisco and San Jose ARE NOT ONE METRO, they are therefore separate Urban Areas. Get it?

I mean for real

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/RjcsA

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/yZcbW

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/3XTu5

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/S1mxk

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/wRC5k

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/syXh5

I think the real question should be: Does Miami even feel as large as the Philadelphia metro?! The answer is no...

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by RumbleFish

Does Philadelphia really feel like it is in the same size as the Miami metro area? Is this a conspiracy?

What Philadelphia feels like courtesy of Angelo Leotta
http://vimeo.com/58032782

Video Link

[Gordo]

We've discussed this many times around SF/SJ, and no, it makes no sense to anyone who has driven between the two or knows the area. The border on both sides of the Bay cuts directly through dense suburban neighborhoods.

If I remember correctly, it's because an urban area must maintain a certain density more than a mile wide or something like that. The Menlo Park/Palo Alto border is shorter than that because the Bay and mountains scrunch development up into a tight sliver and there is undeveloped Stanford University land along part of it. On the other side of the Bay, the border between Fremont and Milpitas is also a fairly small sliver because of mountains/water, and has a fairly large warehouse district on both sides of the border for some length.

More bizarre to me is actually why Concord is a separate UA from SF - it's because the tunnels between the two are long enough to cut them off by the rules, even though those tunnels are heavy rail metro tunnels and 10+ lanes of freeway And then Vallejo is separated from Concord because you have to cross over a bridge to go from one to the other, and there's little development on one side of the bridge, again because of mountains. Long story short, the rules just don't account for the mountains and water of the Bay Area, or the mountains of LA - places where no development can really occur, but intense development exists on either side and obviously the two sides are connected.

[novawolverine]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Philadelphia is MUCH more built up and MUCH more urban for a longer stretch than Miami could ever dream to be. Urban areas are the urbanized parts of metros. Since San Francisco and San Jose ARE NOT ONE METRO, they are therefore separate Urban Areas. Get it?

I don't quite agree with this. Philly has more density in its core and has a level of density that doesn't exist in South Florida for as long a stretches, but I don't think it's correct to say it's more built-up for a longer stretch.

The designations we use are not perfect and they should be used in the proper context. Metro areas are based on counties, whereas urban areas are less constrained in this way. But, places that are in-between metros have to pick one over than the other and this is tied to the county's boundaries. So, you can't split an oddly-shaped county in half and lump part with one metro and the other with another metro. The various limitations and caveats just have to be understood.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by novawolverine

The designations we use are not perfect and they should be used in the proper context. Metro areas are based on counties, whereas urban areas are less constrained in this way. But, places that are in-between metros have to pick one over than the other and this is tied to the county's boundaries. So, you can't split an oddly-shaped county in half and lump part with one metro and the other with another metro. The various limitations and caveats just have to be understood.

Thus why one side of this map is in the Philly UA and the other is not...https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...20757&t=h&z=12

[novawolverine]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Thus why one side of this map is in the Philly UA and the other is not...https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...20757&t=h&z=12

I don't know what this map is supposed to show, but it's no secret that because South Florida is constrained by the Everglades on one side and the Atlantic Ocean on the other, you have a long area basically from West Palm Beach all the way to south of Miami that is fairly built-up. It's also no secret that Mid-Atlantic sprawl is different from sprawl found in other areas of the country.

[RumbleFish]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Philadelphia is MUCH more built up and MUCH more urban for a longer stretch than Miami could ever dream to be. The fact that they even consider Miami larger in urban area is the conspiracy if you ask me. Urban areas are the urbanized parts of metros. Since San Francisco and San Jose ARE NOT ONE METRO, they are therefore separate Urban Areas. Get it?

I mean for real

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/RjcsA

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/yZcbW

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/3XTu5

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/S1mxk

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/wRC5k

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/syXh5

I think the real question should be: Does Miami even feel as large as the Philadelphia metro?! The answer is no...

I do agree that Philadelpia city proper is larger and more urban than Miami, but I am talking about the surroundings areas plus the city proper. Get it? Do you think that there as much consistent build and up and density outside of the Philadelphia city limits as Miami has along the coast?( Miami Beach, Sunny Isles ect). Have you been to the Bay area? Do you get the concept of a metro area? Yes, San Jose and San Francisco are seperate metro areas but should they be? There is no open space in terms of development between them. Do understand what I am asking now Einstein?

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Philadelphia is MUCH more built up and MUCH more urban for a longer stretch than Miami could ever dream to be. The fact that they even consider Miami larger in urban area is the conspiracy if you ask me. Urban areas are the urbanized parts of metros. Since San Francisco and San Jose ARE NOT ONE METRO, they are therefore separate Urban Areas. Get it?

I mean for real

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/RjcsA

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/yZcbW

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/3XTu5

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/S1mxk

Miami:
http://goo.gl/maps/wRC5k

Philadelphia:
http://goo.gl/maps/syXh5

I think the real question should be: Does Miami even feel as large as the Philadelphia metro?! The answer is no...

Guess it would really blow your mind then that those numbers show Miami's metro has nearly twice the population density as Philly's.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by novawolverine

I don't know what this map is supposed to show, but it's no secret that because South Florida is constrained by the Everglades on one side and the Atlantic Ocean on the other, you have a long area basically from West Palm Beach all the way to south of Miami that is fairly built-up. It's also no secret that Mid-Atlantic sprawl is different from sprawl found in other areas of the country.

My point is that on the left of the River is part of the Philly UA and on the right side is not. He is another map https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...83026&t=k&z=10
Metro numbers are meaningless in how big a city feels. It would all come down to the place you are at within the metro.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by RumbleFish

I do agree that Philadelpia city proper is larger and more urban than Miami, but I am talking about the surroundings areas plus the city proper. Get it? Do you think that there as much consistent build and up and density outside of the Philadelphia city limits as Miami has along the coast?( Miami Beach, Sunny Isles ect). Have you been to the Bay area? Do you get the concept of a metro area? Yes, San Jose and San Francisco are seperate metro areas but should they be? There is no open space in terms of development between them. Do understand what I am asking now Einstein?

Have you ever driven I-95?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by summersm343

The fact that they even consider Miami larger in urban area is the conspiracy if you ask me.

Yeah, Miami city officials probably paid off the census bureau to give them a bigger number than Philadelphia. That sounds reasonable.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by RumbleFish

I do agree that Philadelpia city proper is larger and more urban than Miami, but I am talking about the surroundings areas plus the city proper. Get it? Do you think that there as much consistent build and up and density outside of the Philadelphia city limits as Miami has along the coast?( Miami Beach, Sunny Isles ect).

IMO Philadelphia metro does have significant urban build up even outside of the city proper, MUCH more so than Miami... and Philadelphia city proper is 20 times more urban than Miami city proper and for a MUCH longer stretch.

Have you been to the Bay area? Do you get the concept of a metro area? Yes, San Jose and San Francisco are seperate metro areas but should they be? There is no open space in terms of development between them. Do understand what I am asking now Einstein?

I know what you are asking dude.... and I answered it for you. The reason San Francisco and San Jose are two separate Urban Areas is because they are two separate MSA's. Take it up with the Census as to why it is like that. I know there is dense build up between the two but IDK why you are getting so worked up over something that really does not matter in real life.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yeah, Miami city officials probably paid off the census bureau to give them a bigger number than Philadelphia. That sounds reasonable.

Lol I was being sarcastic... if you read the OP you would understand.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by dave8721

Guess it would really blow your mind then that those numbers show Miami's metro has nearly twice the population density as Philly's.

Uhhhhhh... where does it say that?

[RumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Have you ever driven I-95?

Have you ever driven A1A?

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by RumbleFish

Have you ever driven A1A?

Yes, I have. My point is that just like that stretch along the beach in the Miami UA the Philadelphia UA has a built environment up to NY UA along I-95. There is no open space you just are in the NY UA instead of Philly UA once you cross the Delaware River. Are you really claiming that Trenton is a break in development? That was my only point. Both of these areas have tons of development. That is why they are in the top 5.

[RumbleFish]

BUT WHY ARE SAN JOSE and SAN FRANCISCO SEPERATE MSA"S? SUMMERSM???!!!!! I am so worked about this!!! I am on fire!!!! I do not know how to contain myself. I might just go insane!!!:

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by RumbleFish

BUT WHY ARE SAN JOSE and SAN FRANCISCO SEPERATE MSA"S? SUMMERSM???!!!!! I am so worked about this!!! I am on fire!!!! I do not know how to contain myself. I might just go insane!!!:

Hahaha trust me IDK. I usually don't like to use CSA statistics because I just think they are bologna and are a way to measure sprawl and nothing more, but I actually do use CSA statistics for the Bay Area. It is one densely developed area that probably should be one MSA. I don't understand the Census Bureau's logic either. They do some stupid things with the Philadelphia MSA/ CSA as well that doesn't make sense. All I am saying is in real life it doesn't really matter. People still consider "The Bay Area" to be one area. Just like most people in real life consider Trenton/ Princeton and the South Jersey shore to be a part of the Philadelphia area even though the Census says they are not even though they'll give Houston and Dallas 15,000 miles of sprawling metros when the population density is like 500 ppsm. Doesn't make much sense to me either.

[RumbleFish]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Hahaha trust me IDK. I usually don't like to use CSA statistics because I just think they are bologna and are a way to measure sprawl and nothing more, but I actually do use CSA statistics for the Bay Area. It is one densely developed area that probably should be one MSA. I don't understand the Census Bureau's logic either. They do some stupid things with the Philadelphia MSA/ CSA as well that doesn't make sense. All I am saying is in real life it doesn't really matter. People still consider "The Bay Area" to be one area. Just like most people in real life consider Trenton/ Princeton and the South Jersey shore to be a part of the Philadelphia area even though the Census says they are not even though they'll give Houston and Dallas 15,000 miles of sprawling metros when the population density is like 500 ppsm. Doesn't make much sense to me either.

I agree. Good points.