PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Skyscraper.Phanatic]

Although the Mormon Church of LDS is a cash rich organization, they have never come up with much architecturally to wow or please the eye. The Alexander as it is known next to their community house and the mundane LDS church is ok as opposed to great. It certainly does not come near the Basilica od SS Peter and Paul one of the great cathedrals of North America

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper.Phanatic

Although the Mormon Church of LDS is a cash rich organization, they have never come up with much architecturally to wow or please the eye. The Alexander as it is known next to their community house and the mundane LDS church is ok as opposed to great. It certainly does not come near the Basilica od SS Peter and Paul one of the great cathedrals of North America

Well sure but the Cathedral was built in the 1850s. By 21st century standards, the Temple and the Alexander are pretty darn outstanding.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by cardeza

clarke has no power over Harrisburg and the bill could've passed with or without his support. HArrisburg rarely listens to or cares what local politicians have to say and we can presume they had little concern about Clarke's feelings on this bill. For whatever reason, they didn't support this philly-centric initiative. It was always going to be a tall order to get the state constitution amended as far as I can tell.

I don't remember the exact story, but I thought it passed the General Assembly once. (I'm pretty sure the process is constitutional amendments have to pass the General Assembly twice in successive years and then put to a state-wide ballot.) If that is the case, then there was support for it. A Philly specific tax change with chamber of commerce support and some local democratic legislative support (even if not unanimous) really isn't a heavy lift.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper.Phanatic

Although the Mormon Church of LDS is a cash rich organization, they have never come up with much architecturally to wow or please the eye. The Alexander as it is known next to their community house and the mundane LDS church is ok as opposed to great. It certainly does not come near the Basilica od SS Peter and Paul one of the great cathedrals of North America

I'm not head over heels in love with the Temple or the Alexander, but I think you are selling them short. The exterior materials alone and attention to detail make those buildings really stand out. The Basilica is dope too as you mention. I was just at Logan Circle the other day admiring all three of these buildings. Gotta say, if they would slow down traffic on the Parkway and reduce the circle by just one lane, it would be even more of the great spot than it already is.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by eixample

I don't remember the exact story, but I thought it passed the General Assembly once. (I'm pretty sure the process is constitutional amendments have to pass the General Assembly twice in successive years and then put to a state-wide ballot.) If that is the case, then there was support for it. A Philly specific tax change with chamber of commerce support and some local democratic legislative support (even if not unanimous) really isn't a heavy lift.

One would have thought. But from what I recall it was unable to get on the agenda for the second year passing necessary for the amendment change. People here seem to have a hard time accepting that any major change in Philadelphia's tax structure requires major participation and cooperation from Harrisburg. PA allows very little taxation flexibility for its local governments because of the uniformity clause.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

^ As we saw with the 10 year tax abatements, people with higher incomes started moving into the city after it passed. The same is true for states like TX, NC, etc that as they cut taxes people started to move there.

Not saying it would plug the entire hole from a 75% tax reduction. More people would def move in. And the city would need to cut services to make up the difference. Sounds scary, but if businesses are moving in and people are making more money then it can be a net positive.

When you put a significant cut in place (assuming it's not a phased in cut over many years) you end up with an immediate gap in the budget. The City cannot run deficits which means you can only rely on cutting spending or debt to make up the difference. Slashing the #1 revenue generator by 50% or more would open up a massive deficit which means hundreds of millions have to be cut from the budget immediately. Waiting on high income people to move in gradually over multiple years will not solve the problem. Cutting the wage tax would help all workers, but it would not guarantee that people start moving into the city. If you are a commuter you already pay less and many would continue to commute from the suburbs with better schools and simply enjoy their slightly larger paychecks. Any major cut in the wage tax would lead to a subsequent (and theorectically less harmful) tax increase elsewhere- this is what the real estate tax proposal was all about. Shift more burden to commercial real estate in order to cut the wage tax more aggressively.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

People aren't moving in if the schools are still in disarray.

Cutting and simplifying business taxes is way more important than cutting the wage tax.

Comparatively, Philadelphia has lower property taxes than most suburbs. I think people understand you pay somewhere...whether it be via property taxes or wage taxes. I think people also expect to pay a bit more in taxes in a highly urban jurisdiction. There's just so much more a city has to fund than your typical suburban town.

I wish PA did not rely so heavily on property taxes but that is a whole other discussion. But yes I have done some comparisons and in quite a few cases even with the wage tax you can save some money in the city vs the burbs (but you can lose it in other areas like car insurance so it can end up being a wash).

And can we stop talking about TX as a low tax haven? Sure, it doesn't have an income tax. It has among the highest property taxes in the country. Like NJ level high. Again. You pay for it somewhere.

TX just happens to have really good and misleading marketing around the cost of living there.

I can second this. Years ago when the company I was working for opened a second site in the Dallas area I spent some time down there, as they were asking me if I would be open to moving there (and as luck would have it I have a friend that moved there a few years earlier and was really enjoying it so the idea was appealing). I was shocked at the property taxes and a few other things and while yes in some areas the cost of living was cheaper on paper it didn't seem like one would be saving all that much, if anything. I enjoyed my time there but in the end decided not to move at that time. One of my coworkers did, though, and after a few years has since moved back.

But Dallas is cool and growing and changing very quickly and it's worth a look if you are interested in Texas.

[summersm343]

CDR Submissions are up for December!

A ton of great projects. The most notable of the new ones is 13th and Washington. 12 floors and 138 feet tall!

McGrath, can you make a new thread?

Link:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20201125...ec-10-2020.pdf

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

CDR Submissions are up for December!

A ton of great projects. The most notable of the new ones is 13th and Washington. 12 floors and 138 feet tall!

McGrath, can you make a new thread?

Link:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20201125...ec-10-2020.pdf

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...21#post9116921

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...21#post9116921

McGrath618, please check your title: "Title: 1021 N. Hancock Street"

EDIT: He fixed it.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

When you put a significant cut in place (assuming it's not a phased in cut over many years) you end up with an immediate gap in the budget. The City cannot run deficits which means you can only rely on cutting spending or debt to make up the difference. Slashing the #1 revenue generator by 50% or more would open up a massive deficit which means hundreds of millions have to be cut from the budget immediately. Waiting on high income people to move in gradually over multiple years will not solve the problem. Cutting the wage tax would help all workers, but it would not guarantee that people start moving into the city. If you are a commuter you already pay less and many would continue to commute from the suburbs with better schools and simply enjoy their slightly larger paychecks. Any major cut in the wage tax would lead to a subsequent (and theorectically less harmful) tax increase elsewhere- this is what the real estate tax proposal was all about. Shift more burden to commercial real estate in order to cut the wage tax more aggressively.

I’m all for an incremental reduction each year, but they’ve been saying for years they’ll cut the wage tax but never do. The reality is phillys collective taxes are too high: wage, transfer tax, real estate, etc. the all-in tax cost per taxpayer for subpar city services isn’t acceptable to many of us.

Let’s not go down this rabbit hole. You and I don’t agree on this topic, and we aren’t going to change our minds.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...21#post9116921

Thanks McGrath! You’re the man.

[mja]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I’m all for an incremental reduction each year, but they’ve been saying for years they’ll cut the wage tax but never do.

Not to wade into the argument, but they have continuously made small incremental cuts to the wage tax nearly annually since 1996. It's down more than a full point since it's height in 1983, around .8 of a point since 2000, and a .1 of a point since the 2008 recession slowed down cuts considerably (and even saw an almost negligible increase for a year or two).

[Radio5]

Originally Posted by summersm343

CDR Submissions are up for December!

A ton of great projects. The most notable of the new ones is 13th and Washington. 12 floors and 138 feet tall!

McGrath, can you make a new thread?

Link:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20201125...ec-10-2020.pdf

Where do you find the CDR Submissions? Can't locate it on their website

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Radio5

Where do you find the CDR Submissions? Can't locate it on their website

They moved it; it's now lumped into the Planning Commission public meetings page here:

https://www.phila.gov/departments/ph...blic-meetings/

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by mja

Not to wade into the argument, but they have continuously made small incremental cuts to the wage tax nearly annually since 1996. It's down more than a full point since it's height in 1983, around .8 of a point since 2000, and a .1 of a point since the 2008 recession slowed down cuts considerably (and even saw an almost negligible increase for a year or two).

That’s fair. It’s been small, but some movement downward has happened. My frustration is as they do that, they unfairly/ununiformly increase land tax and other things to undo any of the benefit on many.

For anyone interested....here’s all the tax history. https://www.phila.gov/media/20170209...ed-8.29.16.pdf

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I’m all for an incremental reduction each year, but they’ve been saying for years they’ll cut the wage tax but never do. The reality is phillys collective taxes are too high: wage, transfer tax, real estate, etc. the all-in tax cost per taxpayer for subpar city services isn’t acceptable to many of us.

Let’s not go down this rabbit hole. You and I don’t agree on this topic, and we aren’t going to change our minds.

the wage tax has generally been gradually reduced since Rendell was mayor. NOt sure where you are getting the idea it's never been cut from. It used to be nearly 5% for residents. There have been several times where the cuts were halted for a year or two due to economic conditions, but generally speaking the rate has been slowly reduced for over 20 years.

What is subpar city services exactly? There is no city in the US where all (or even the overwhelming majority) of citizens feel they are getting their money's worth. Its all subjective. Also, reducing expenditures likely isnt going to lead to more services- just a hunch.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by cardeza

What is subpar city services exactly? There is no city in the US where all (or even the overwhelming majority) of citizens feel they are getting their money's worth. Its all subjective. Also, reducing expenditures likely isnt going to lead to more services- just a hunch.

Have you ever lived anywhere else?

Sidewalk cleaning and street sweeping (different services that often gets combined into one) are pretty basic city needs that every other major city in America has... Our parks are very poorly maintained compared to pier cities - to name just a few.

[Radio5]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

They moved it; it's now lumped into the Planning Commission public meetings page here:

https://www.phila.gov/departments/ph...blic-meetings/

Ah, thanks.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

the wage tax has generally been gradually reduced since Rendell was mayor. NOt sure where you are getting the idea it's never been cut from. It used to be nearly 5% for residents. There have been several times where the cuts were halted for a year or two due to economic conditions, but generally speaking the rate has been slowly reduced for over 20 years.

What is subpar city services exactly? There is no city in the US where all (or even the overwhelming majority) of citizens feel they are getting their money's worth. Its all subjective. Also, reducing expenditures likely isnt going to lead to more services- just a hunch.

It’s decreased a little, and Philly STILL has the highest city wage tax in the country. It’s not exactly something to celebrate.

Yesterday I drove from Old City to Kensington and back and the amount of pot holes I dodged were probably 100-200 each way. Big ones too. And trash scattered about the streets. That’s not the case when you go to other major cities. Considering we have the highest taxes, there’s no excuse for our awful city services.