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  #1161  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 12:59 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
This is truly amazing. Thanks for posting. I have been reading the Regina thread and I thought that they were dreaming when forum members kept posting reports that they could get federal funding for their proposed $435 million dollar retractable dome stadium. Maybe they are right.

Why not, most other countries provide very significant amounts of money for sports infrastructure. This could be great news for the Halifax area (as long as the HRM and provincial NDP don't let us down). However, now that I have read the article, I think that there should be limits. Halifax could likely build a stadium for $80 million with $30 million from the federal government but is it fair for Regina and Quebec City to expect $170 million each? Personally, I think that federal dollars should be a available since sports teams help bring the nation together (example - the Vancouver Winter Olympics). But I think that cities should show some restraint. I would also like to see LRT in Halifax (in addition to a stadium). So I would like there to be federal funding available for that purpose also.

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 19, 2010 at 1:55 AM.
     
     
  #1162  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 2:57 AM
Welkin Welkin is offline
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Stand in line Halifax. Here is your chance to get federal funding for a new stadium. Maybe we should all cross our fingers and hope that the politicians in HRM get on top of this.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2010/...s.html?ref=rss
     
     
  #1163  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 4:22 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
Oh my - that's very interesting. The question; can HRM get it's act together to get something in to take advantage?
     
     
  #1164  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 4:31 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I think we need to be careful about this. It dawned on me this morning when I was in a meeting about TOD projects that with all this spending - at some point we're going to have to pay the money back. So good now; pain later, but I digress.

Fenwick - you sketch up drawing works well - but I think it does show that the site would be a little bit tight in terms of clearance distances. That being said; there is no reason that as part of the overall project HRM couldn't expropriate the whole section (if this was the spot) and then sell back what it didn't need to Superstore and developers to re-develop to something better (that store is getting old).

Personally; with the potential for Bayer's Road being widened; I think you might be able to widen Windsor street down to Connaught with an additional lane which could change with traffic flow. Might even be able to get a 4 lane road out of it; but it would be tight.

I'm more inclined (because of the funding announcement) to think that it might be better to put something like this out in say Burnside or even Woodside? WHy not the old chocolate factory - that's a pretty large site too? Or even Bayer's Lake would work; simply for the sake of keeping land costs down - the transportation connections can be solved with planning of special event buses from designated locations (Dartmouth - Bridge, Penhorn, Mic Mac, Portland Hills and Highfield Stations and from West End Mall and Bedford and Sackville). Heck; even out in Ragged Lake or by the Exhibition Park would work too.

I seem to keep waffling - but with this recent announcement; it's something worth trying to consider but timing will be a factor.
     
     
  #1165  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 6:30 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Why wasn't The Trillium put out in Burnside or Woodlawn? Would people get as excited about the Trillium if it was located in Burnside (how many would notice it, except in passing). Why wasn't the Metro Centre put out in Burnside? For that matter, the Public Gardens could be relocated to Burnside. The convention centre could be put out in Enfield where there is more space and it is closer to the airport for visitors (and the land is cheap).

If you think that I am being sarcastic, then you are right. The reason that you don't put a stadium on the outskirts is the same reason you don't put other such facilities on the outskirts. If you want it to be unnoticed, underutilized and eventually forgotten then you put it in an area like Burnside.

Honestly, halifaxboyns, I think that you are just trying to annoy me. But if the majority of Haligonians decide to put a stadium in Burnside or Woodside then so be it. Let Halifax do what most cities realized was a mistake 30 years ago (put a stadium in an obscure, cheap location on the outskirts of the municipality) .

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM. Reason: correction - changed Woodlawn to Woodside
     
     
  #1166  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 11:45 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 10, 2010 at 12:27 PM. Reason: commenting further seemed to be pointless
     
     
  #1167  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 12:51 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Ceres Terminal Location

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
I still think the city owned property between Ceres container terminal and Seaview Park could handle a stadium.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...,0.036306&z=15
That is not a bad location choice....my question might be the ability to build there......given its the old dump site....not sure how many years have to pass before all those methane gas issue are no longer in play.
     
     
  #1168  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:05 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Cost too big a factor

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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I never said that there should only be one possible location. I prefer DND Willow Park and the West Mall areas as stated two posts prior to your post with pro's and cons and a list of my top 5 picks.



I have a strong feeling for which areas I would personally prefer, that doesn't mean that I am sticking to one location, even in a primarily theoretical discussion.



I don't consider the Wanders Grounds to be a realistic locations (as stated previously). But the Halifax Mainland Commons is where the Canada Winter Games complex is being built. (it is not the Halifax Commons on the Peninsula)



This site would be very good. It would be my top choice if it were to be vacated in the near future. I just haven't heard any talk about it being vacated anytime soon. I like it because it is even closer to downtown Halifax than the DND Willow Park site and has more width for sideline seats and concourse space. It is just a short walk from the Halifax North Commons which has proved to be a good concert site.

The cost to acquire the Canada Post location would be astronomic.....why anyone one tear down a 20million dollar sorting station (and have to build a new one somewhere) to put up a 50million stadium......that would add 40% to the cost.
     
     
  #1169  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:13 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
The cost to acquire the Canada Post location would be astronomic.....why anyone one tear down a 20million dollar sorting station (and have to build a new one somewhere) to put up a 50million stadium......that would add 40% to the cost.
I can't see it happening either. More and more people are using the internet for email instead of sending letters. The only way that it would happen would be if the sorting station has become too small and needs to be replaced (not that I know of). The sorting station location was suggested by halifaxboyns.
     
     
  #1170  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 1:49 AM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Why wasn't The Trillium put out in Burnside or Woodlawn? Would people get as excited about the Trillium if it was located in Burnside (how many would notice it, except in passing). Why wasn't the Metro Centre put out in Burnside? For that matter, the Public Gardens could be relocated to Burnside. The convention centre could be put out in Enfield where there is more space and it is closer to the airport for visitors (and the land is cheap).
Having fun comparing apples to oranges?

I know you've got your (very strong) opinions, but sometimes you're not very good at expressing them.
     
     
  #1171  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 2:14 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
Having fun comparing apples to oranges?

I know you've got your (very strong) opinions, but sometimes you're not very good at expressing them.
Maybe you just have a hard time understanding them hfx_chris. It seems like my views are quite simple. Many people understand why you don't stick ballparks and stadiums out on the perimeter of the city just because land is cheap. My mistake has been in wasting so much time in trying to explain it. Do some research on your own. In return, I will stop wasting so much of your time and mine.
     
     
  #1172  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 2:18 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Here is a stadium model (drawn by "Amon - Skux" posted on the Google 3D Warehouse) that I downloaded, and then added Google map detail from the Shannon Park area. This is a model of a real stadium that is located in Hong Kong - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Stadium . It is a modern design with most of the seats covered and it has room in the endzones for expansion. This stadium seats 40,000 which is too much for the Halifax area. However it could be built with the lowest bowl sunken and no end zone seats. It is 3 tiers (including the lowest bowl) but maybe one tier could be omitted to reduce the seating and keep the cost down. The only thing that I changed on "Amon - Skux" model is that I stretched it by 20% so that a CFL size field would fit in it. Then I placed it at Shannon Park. I have to admit that this is probably the most scenic of the various sites mentioned. It would also have good visibility - many people would see it everyday as they cross the Halifax bridges. My biggest problem with this location is that public transit is almost non-existent and people won't be able to walk there from the Halifax core.

I really like this type of design - more than I liked the Commonwealth Games proposal - my reasoning is that the seating is divided between both sidelines instead of being one massive stand on one side of the field (which the Commonwealth Games Stadium would have been once temporary seats were removed). This has more of a traditional stadium feel to it whereas the Commonwealth Games Stadium would have been more like the grandstand of a racing rack (on just one side of the field).

(Stadium Model drawn by "Amon Skux" which I pasted at Shannon Park)


(source: Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Stadium )
     
     
  #1173  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 6:32 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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The cost for the Canada post site may not be as much as you think. I've got some professional contacts with Canada post who've been telling me for a while that the sorting station is bursting at the seems. They are going to have to move at some point simply because the station was only designed to handle a population base of about 250-300K. We're now well over 100K beyond that and even though mail delivery has dropped; they still see huge volumes. So it may end up coming up naturally if what they are saying is correctly - but I digress.

I think you are correct Fenwick; a stadium like the one you showed would certainly be iconic if it was at Shannon Park - you could see it as you crossed the bridge or were anywhere in the north end of halifax.

I think the problems with transportation for the site (mainly transit) can be overcome as part of the Shannon Park redevelopment exercise. I would assume that they would want to undertake a secondary planning strategy for the area and do a full land use study; so as part of that I'm guessing there would be a transportation plan with it. If Shannon is redeveloped; I'd like to see the stadium pushed back from the waterfront side and some low rise condos with ground floor put along the shore line (much like Bishop's landing) that can be put up against a boardwalk. The boardwalk could then lead to a high speed ferry. As for other bus routes; you could funnel many from the Bridge Terminal and Highfield Terminal into the site relatively easily. Plus Mumford or Scotia Square could be the main route terminus points for the Halifax side, along with a route from Bedford/Sackville which could come through Burnside.
     
     
  #1174  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 8:15 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
The cost for the Canada post site may not be as much as you think. I've got some professional contacts with Canada post who've been telling me for a while that the sorting station is bursting at the seems. They are going to have to move at some point simply because the station was only designed to handle a population base of about 250-300K. We're now well over 100K beyond that and even though mail delivery has dropped; they still see huge volumes. So it may end up coming up naturally if what they are saying is correctly - but I digress.
Thanks for the info about the Canada Post site. I had heard of this possibility also (a few months ago). I guess even with email there will still be package and letter delivery. With so many internet-based companies shipping out packages, the Postal Office will probably continue to be busy. The Canada Post site is a better location than the DND Willow Park site because it is wider and has sufficient length (the Rogers Centre would fit at this location based on my measurements from Google Earth).

As much as I like the Shannon Park area in terms of scenery, I still believe this is a better location (Halifax Forum area) in terms of drawing power. Even a partially sunken stadium would still be visible at the Canada Post location from both bridges. Visibility is one requirement for the new Hamilton stadium proposal by both the city of Hamilton and Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner. If it stands out on the cityscape then people will be drawn to it for various events (It is like a giant billboard - except hopefully it will look better).

If it costs an extra few million for a location close to downtown which will result in more people using the facility then it will pay off in the long run. This will be the only large outdoor facility in the Halifax area so it will get any large event that can't be held at the Halifax Metro Centre.
     
     
  #1175  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 8:39 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Thanks for the info about the Canada Post site. I had heard of this possibility also (a few months ago). I guess even with email there will still be package and letter delivery. With so many internet-based companies shipping out packages, the Postal Office will probably continue to be busy. The Canada Post site is a better location than the DND Willow Park site because it is wider and has sufficient length (the Rogers Centre would fit at this location based on my measurements from Google Earth).

As much as I like the Shannon Park area in terms of scenery, I still believe this is a better location (Halifax Forum area) in terms of drawing power. Even a partially sunken stadium would still be visible at the Canada Post location from both bridges. Visibility is one requirement for the new Hamilton stadium proposal by both the city of Hamilton and Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner. If it stands out on the cityscape then people will be drawn to it for various events (It is like a giant billboard - except hopefully it will look better).

If it costs an extra few million for a location close to downtown which will result in more people using the facility then it will pay off in the long run. This will be the only large outdoor facility in the Halifax area so it will get any large event that can't be held at the Halifax Metro Centre.
The post office site would be perfect and much better than willow park...
     
     
  #1176  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 1:48 AM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Maybe you just have a hard time understanding them hfx_chris. It seems like my views are quite simple. Many people understand why you don't stick ballparks and stadiums out on the perimeter of the city just because land is cheap. My mistake has been in wasting so much time in trying to explain it. Do some research on your own. In return, I will stop wasting so much of your time and mine.
Interesting. You ridicule the notion of putting a stadium in a place like Burnside, and then you propose a stadium in what is basically Burnside.
If I'm not understanding something, it's your logic.
     
     
  #1177  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 3:33 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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lol

I just want this to happen some day... it would be good for the CFL.
     
     
  #1178  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 3:38 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
Interesting. You ridicule the notion of putting a stadium in a place like Burnside, and then you propose a stadium in what is basically Burnside.
If I'm not understanding something, it's your logic.
I didn't propose or even suggest a stadium for Burnside or Shannon Park. I simply downloaded a stadium model drawn by "Amon Skux" of the Hong Kong stadium since I like the stadium design and Shannon Park is a scenic location. I also stated my concerns with that location. However, I drive a car so having to get to Shannon Park by car is not a concern for me personally. I am just concerned that it will keep some people away and that it will therefore not be as successful as it would be in a more central location.

You asked what people considered to to be the best locations for a stadium. Below is your post number # 1147.

Quote:
I think we need to re-list all of the possible sites that have been mentioned in this thread, and try not to take constructive criticism of sites too personally.

The ones I can think of off the top of my head:

* Willow Park (DND)
* Shannon Park (DND)
* Dartmouth Crossing (expansion of existing field on Commodore)
* Wanderers Grounds
* Gorsebrook Field
* Huskies Stadium (SMU - renovation)
* Mainland Common
* Northcliffe Centre
* Marginal Road
* Woodside area (not sure where exactly)

Those are the ones I can remember being mentioned, whether seriously or not seriously discussed, in this thread. Perhaps we can fill that in with any others (I know there are some; somebody mentioned a rock quarry, but I can't remember where) - and maybe start listing some site descriptions, transportation accessibility (both car and transit), pros and cons, etc.
My thoughts about the Shannon Park site are as I stated previously (in pros and cons, as you requested):

Shannon Park (DND) - Pros: There wouldn't be much opposition to a stadium at this location, it could be an appealing site with the old residential buildings torn down, good highway access and lots of space available Cons: The public transportation is almost non-existent and there are few amenities close by (such as restaurants).

If the HRM council stated tomorrow that they have decided to build a stadium at Shannon Park then I would be just as happy as anyone; simply because I want to see the Halifax area move forward and have a national sports team that I can cheer for. However, it is not my first choice and I have concerns that it is not the best location for a successful venue. If you disagree with my point of view then why don't you state your reasons why, instead of trying to offend me? Maybe a stadium in the HRM really is too risky at this time - it would require a politician or politicians to take a risk since it could be a successful venue or it might lose money every year. If it loses money then the HRM tax payers will have to pay for it. I would like to see the HRM start to take risks and build a stadium and new convention centre but I don't pay property tax down there so maybe I shouldn't be stating my viewpoint. It would be best for you to state whether or not you want to take such a risk. Personally, I think that if having a stadium in the Halifax area meant paying an extra $100 per year property tax then I think it would be worth it.

Edited - I did a quick calculation just off the top of my head and came up with the following numbers. I think $100 a year increase in income tax is an over-estimate. I would guess that there are 150,000 - 160,000 private tax payers (about 2.5 people per family) in the HRM plus corporate tax payers. However, for the sake of simplicity, let's assume that if a stadium has an annual loss of $2,000,000 it must all be covered directly by the individual taxpayers. This would amount to about $2,000,000/150,000 = $13.33 per year per property tax payer. In my mind this would be a bargain.

Since the HRM doesn't normally borrow money, the capital required for a stadium would not be borrowed so there would not be interest payments (as will be the case with the new Central Library). Instead, money that goes towards a stadium would mean less money for others projects. The cost of the stadium could be covered by the HRM, provincial government and hopefully federal government with some private money coming from naming rights and direct private contributions (hopefully the cost would be about 25% each from the four sectors, which would be about $20 million each from the HRM, province, feds and private investment for a $80 million dollar stadium).

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 13, 2010 at 12:59 AM.
     
     
  #1179  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 9:07 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Both Shannon Park and the Willow Park/Canada Post locations have their pro's and con's.

I can see a stadium at Shannon Park being a large piece in a broad redevelopment proposal and like it's been stated, there would be little opposition as little to no one lives there and that the stadium could create an iconic building on the harbour. The draw back is that on top of the money for new roads, sewers, storm water management and other street infrastructure - you now also have to build new transportation to the site (bus and possibly ferry).

With both Willow Park and Canada Post; the site is located with existing transportation already established along Young, Windsor and Robie Street which services much of the suburban communities in Halifax and Bedford as well as the North end, South end and downtown. The other pro (that I see with the Canada Post site) is the fact that you could have one big multipurpose site in one location: the forum and the stadium. This could have tremendous advantages and create a desire to redevelop the area with more high density residential (and inspire HRM to invest money into making the forum better).

There are draw backs though: Windsor park is narrow and the stadium might end up 'squeezed in'. Both sites are currently occupied and would require expropriation or negotiation (land swap?) plus demolition and as someone pointed out - the existing roads around both sites are 2 to 4 lane - so an event may cause temporary bottlenecks. I suspect that might change if the project began as Windsor could probably be widened to 3 lanes (1 lane multi-directional with traffic flow) and the Bayer's Road Project would widen the street (if it occurs). In addition you'd have the cost of demolition and probably localized sewer/water upgrades (to handle additional capacity).

The big plus for either of the locations is that it keeps the stadium in the regional centre though, which I think is something that's a bonus. I wouldn't be so upset if it ended up in Burnside; since it's pretty much next to what HRM is defining as the regional centre.

Greenfield will always have the benefits of being able to build the road capacity and the site to fit the needs of the operator (since you are pretty much starting with a blank slate). An existing brownfield site (already developed) will always have challenges which will add $. But in this case, I firmly believe that the additional cost (regardless of the location) are worth it if you create something that will draw everyone to the site.

The only thing I would add is that regardless of the location - I'd like to make sure that metro transit gets priority when it comes to servicing the site. Make sure that bus bays are located adjacent to the main entrance (which can also include something like what fenwick had shown previous - a salute to the navy or some other type of decoration like that) and any intersections accessing the adjacent streets (which may become signalized) have transit priority lights allowing them time to queue jump. I'd also recommend that a special set of route numbers be setup for routes to service the site (over and above existing route - if it's located at SP or WP/CP). These routes only run on event days with pre-set scheduled announced a week before the event. So say a set of routes like this:
  1. 100 - Stadium (Sackville)
  2. 101 - Stadium (Portland Hills/Penhorn)
  3. 102 - Stadium (Lacewood)
  4. 103 - Stadium (Timberlea/Tantallon)
  5. 104 - Stadium (Bedford)
  6. 105 - Stadium (Mumford)
The routes would drop off at the stadium and then at designated stops along their routes ending at either major transit stops or major communities (Tantalllon would end where the 33 ends now; at the Tantallon Shopping Centre).
     
     
  #1180  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2010, 4:42 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Burnside is outside of the highway.

Most Canadian cities with stadiums have put them in regionally central locations right outside of the downtown where land is a little cheaper. A comparable site in Halifax terms would be Young Street. One could also imagine building it along the Seawall if a third crossing is built.
I disagree "Young Street" is far from any sort of comparison....New England is far away from Boston, Washington Redskins actually play in Maryland, the new Meadowlands is in New Jersey where both the Jets and Giants play, McMahon, Commonwealth, CanadInns, the exceptions of course are McGill, Skydome, BC, IvorWynne.....for the most part older already in place or serving other audiences...(ie: Skydome - Jays).
Heck,...even Moncton built on the outskirts.....

Simply put... today for costs and ease of construction Stadiums are either built on decaying land inside the cities or outside the cities on less expensive larger tracts of land. In HRM there really is little choice.....
Although I do like the work done by fenwick on the drawing board....it seems like a traffic nightmare and the site is simply too tight...even with demolishing millions of dollars of buildings (young or almon)
For me at least the location answer is either along the 102 or on the Dartmouth side in Shannon park , Burnside, or Dartmouth Crossing....it all works for me....

I just want it built now!!!!!!
     
     
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