Canadian cities American counterparts

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by wave46

What version of Atlanta are we talking about here? Or Toronto, really?

Are we talking about the facades of glass and steel that dominate these cities today? The ones that dominate over the history of the places and are more representative of modern thinking?

In modern context and view, these cities are not terribly different, accent aside. They represent a particular nexus of each country's development. Toronto is modern day Anglo-Canada - its hopes, dreams and flaws in animate and inanimate form. It embraces the new and throws out the old without care.

Atlanta is the South meeting the 21st century. Ted Turner and Coca-Cola, with a Delta connection at the airport. You do a better job of capturing historical Atlanta than I ever could.

Each has its history. Toronto, with its vestiges of Orange Order Anglo power fading from memory; its English version of orderliness with a North American twist. Not the scene of passionate mobs or flashpoint of cultural tensions, but a stolid perseverance. Bill Davis, but in metropolis form. It became America sans Americans sometime in the 1980s-2000s.

What kind of argument is this?

I addressed all of this in my original post. "In a modern context and view" - like, what does this mean? Every city has it's history, the original post called Atlanta "ahistoric", and responses only highlighted Toronto's history in disputation.

I pointed out how ridiculous that was, and how Atlanta undeniably has more history behind it, particularly as an American city, than Toronto. In fact, kind of like Birmingham, UK, Atlanta's modern architectural vernacular is so prevalent because the old city was destroyed in Sherman's March - a significant historical event beyond anything that Toronto faced.

You can't just ignore this. You can't call Atlanta ahistoric. What is the "North American twist" that defines Toronto? The US sets the North American culture, by and large. You have to be able to define what a "North American twist" is. Right now, I still can't find anything that makes Toronto more culturally distinct than Atlanta.

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Because America is such a global hegemon in terms of culture and economics, American cities are much more storied even if they're "thin on the ground" in terms of the kinds of things that really appeal to lovers of cities.

Detroit is a classic example. It rightfully holds the title of the birthplace of the modern middle class, it birthed a number of prominent musical genres ranging from Motown to Techno, it even has some unique architectural gems, like Moorish and Egyptian-inspired Art Deco apartments, and probably the 3rd best pre-war skyscraper collection in America. Historians will be talking about Detroit long after they've stopped talking about Toronto.

But is Toronto more interesting for people who like to explore cities than Detroit? Yes. Would I rather live in inner city Toronto than Detroit? Absolutely.

There are other cities like this that fire up the imagination because of their outsized contribution to world history, but probably aren't going to be places a lot of people aspire to visit or live: Manchester, Shenzhen, etc. Anybody up for a trip to Kaliningrad to walk amongst the ghosts of Kant and Hannah Arendt?

Your second to last paragraph contains an incredibly flawed comparison. The US has 50 metros over 1 million in population. You're comparing the premiere market in Canada to the 24th most populous city proper in the United States, and one that was uniquely beset by blight in a way other such industrial cities weren't.

Cities aren't interesting just because they're cleaner, safer, and more efficient. Toronto doesn't offer more interesting things for "people who like to explore cities". That involves cultural distinction - wherever the populated place.

Toronto does not offer more for city-lovers than the two cities in the US it's comparable to - NYC and Chicago.

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Yes, Calgary "REALLY" is that similar to Denver. Virtually identical feel in the inner cities, except Calgary's river frontages on the Bow and Elbow are far better than those of the South Platte near downtown Denver. Even the historic built forms (though being considerably older, Denver does have a bigger stock). I'd say if there's any nearly identical cities between the two countries, it's those two. Christ, even the geography and topography are essentially identical, even regionally... grasslands, semi-arid, one is 20 km from the front ranges, the other is 45. The next closest comparison would be Toronto and Chicago.

Calgary isn't semi-arid like Denver is. That region of the US is much more arid than any populated place in Canada really is, which is to your comment about the rivers - the South Platte just doesn't really gush with water.

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Montréal and Philadelphia are somewhat similar in aerial shots but that's it. Long straight lines , triplex, rowhouses, etc.. Montréal and Phily were the same size up until the end of 2010. Montréal (city) is now larger and growing faster.

Philadelphia has a metro population of 6 million to Montreal's 4 million...

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by wave46

In that specific sense, the relative lack of decline in our older cities comparatively might be something Toronto shares with some more western US cities.

You're choosing a not really comparable bunch of US cities either. While Los Angeles and San Francisco may have cores and histories on the order of comparison to Toronto/Montreal, Las Vegas and Phoenix were basically nothing until after the 1950s.

A decline in the urbanity of Las Vegas or Phoenix is basically impossible save for Detroit-style abandonment as they were only minimally urban to begin with. Effectively, those cities were the world's first purely suburban (post-modern?) cities: a Central Business District as a big node of employment, but basically abandoned after hours, surrounded by suburbs and office parks for miles. Industrial development located in parks away from the core of the city.

In built form, Toronto and Montreal have more in common with eastern US cities. They were industrial cities that more or less successfully made the transition to post-industrial economies. The bottom never fell out completely as they transitioned from one mode to the next, for a bunch of reasons that I won't rehash here.

The cities you describe tend to be multi-nodal with no particular focus on a singular downtown. Many "suburbs", for example, will be equally as urban and bustling as the technical city center in cities like Phoenix or Houston.

Originally Posted by Architype

It might be fair to say that Canadian cities were imitations of British/European cities in the early days, and imitations of American cities a bit later. Even so, most Canadian cities do not have easily identifiable American counterparts, even Vancouver and Seattle, a fair comparison, are as different as similar for a number of reasons. Considering this, what characteristics do our cities actually have that is truly home grown?

With few exceptions, I think there are more cities in the US that better approximate a metropolitan British/European experience than there are Canadian cities that do. A lot of this has to do with population and age. The US was wealthier and more populated well before Canada was, and it's pre-war architectural stock, city to city, is more robust than Canada's is (no, that doesn't mean every city - we know Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, etc, are more bland and modern).

The US urbanized and suburbanized much earlier, and when it built suburbs out from each city's respective core, there was often housing developed around historic main streets and former "small towns".

That gives a lot of suburbs, towns, and populated places in the United States a much more aesthetic, walkable vibe with a more robust "main street" culture - similar to the British high street.

Canada has a handful of aesthetic outer suburbs and towns, but outside of a few eastern cities like Montreal and Quebec City, Canada simply didn't develop early enough to have the same kind of main street culture - I'm thinking of outer suburbs like Hinsdale, Illinois, which is aesthetic and historic, has only about 17,000 people, has access to downtown Chicago via Metra, and has all sorts of small businesses and national chains along it's main street, including some home grown and international luxury labels - Yves Delorme, for the latter. You have tons of suburbs like this around Chicago - Elmhurst, LaGrange, Downer's Grove, Clarendon Hills, Naperville, Geneva, St. Charles, Western Springs, Westmont...I struggle to think of any Canadian city that has such robust main street activity a great distance from the downtown area as a vast array of American cities do. Again, I'm thinking history and the comparatively scant population has something to do with it.

[SignalHillHiker]

For St. John's, I really don't know. We're not big enough to compare to any of the American cities people would know, though we have traits in common with lots of them.

Every city in North America has an old town, an upper class area, a lower class area, specific commercial districts, etc. What differentiates them is the size of each, and its relative influence on the general city culture. People who work in Finance occupy a bigger percentage of the culture in cities like Toronto, New York, London, for example. We have people in those jobs here, not enough that it has any impact on the city's culture, daily life.

That's sort of my mindset in looking at things. What St. John's does, well beyond its size, is social stratification. Not only do we have a lower class, like everywhere else, we have one that's a HUGE percentage of the city's geography and population, we have one that has its own accent and culture and is hard to get out of. You don't usually get that in cities our size unless race is involved (here it of course isn't).

So you have to blend picturesque tourist town, with downtrodden former industrial town, with dirty port city, with hipster/arts/culture mecca, with obsessed with live music, with colourful buildings, on and on. The ratios are, I think, pretty unique here for a North American city.

So nothing American really jumps out, beyond token, superficial picks like Boston for the Irish emphasis, random PA towns for the architecture.

But if you go deeper, to how most residents of a city live, to how most residents of a city feel about it... I suspect Baltimore is probably the best bet.

- Residents are pissed off about almost everything, but love it.
- They can complain, you can't.
- Rowhouses, segregation, music.

On and on. I think it's the deepest fit, even if it's not at all accurate on the surface.

This could EASILY be set in St. John's:

• Video Link

[brightlite]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

For St. John's, I really don't know. We're not big enough to compare to any of the American cities people would know, though we have traits in common with lots of them.

Every city in North America has an old town, an upper class area, a lower class area, specific commercial districts, etc. What differentiates them is the size of each, and its relative influence on the general city culture. People who work in Finance occupy a bigger percentage of the culture in cities like Toronto, New York, London, for example. We have people in those jobs here, not enough that it has any impact on the city's culture, daily life.

That's sort of my mindset in looking at things. What St. John's does, well beyond its size, is social stratification. Not only do we have a lower class, like everywhere else, we have one that's a HUGE percentage of the city's geography and population, we have one that has its own accent and culture and is hard to get out of. You don't usually get that in cities our size unless race is involved (here it of course isn't).

So you have to blend picturesque tourist town, with downtrodden former industrial town, with dirty port city, with hipster/arts/culture mecca, with obsessed with live music, with colourful buildings, on and on. The ratios are, I think, pretty unique here for a North American city.

So nothing American really jumps out, beyond token, superficial picks like Boston for the Irish emphasis, random PA towns for the architecture.

But if you go deeper, to how most residents of a city live, to how most residents of a city feel about it... I suspect Baltimore is probably the best bet.

- Residents are pissed off about almost everything, but love it.
- They can complain, you can't.
- Rowhouses, segregation, music.

On and on. I think it's the deepest fit, even if it's not at all accurate on the surface.

This could EASILY be set in St. John's:

• Video Link

I mean, from that clip, I couldn't tell that was Baltimore, so...

And how is St. John's a 'hipster/arts/culture" mecca or "obsessed with live music" in relation to any other cities on the continent?

[north 42]

Originally Posted by brightlite

Your second to last paragraph contains an incredibly flawed comparison. The US has 50 metros over 1 million in population. You're comparing the premiere market in Canada to the 24th most populous city proper in the United States, and one that was uniquely beset by blight in a way other such industrial cities weren't.

Cities aren't interesting just because they're cleaner, safer, and more efficient. Toronto doesn't offer more interesting things for "people who like to explore cities". That involves cultural distinction - wherever the populated place.

Toronto does not offer more for city-lovers than the two cities in the US it's comparable to - NYC and Chicago.

Ugh! It’s Magicinterest from City-Data.com, who I’m pretty sure got banned!

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by brightlite

I mean, from that clip, I couldn't tell that was Baltimore, so...

And how is St. John's a 'hipster/arts/culture" mecca or "obsessed with live music" in relation to any other cities on the continent?

I figured it out when she repeatedly sang "Baltimore".

Hehe. But seriously, it's probably CGI. It's not so much about the... reality. It's the impression.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by brightlite

Calgary isn't semi-arid like Denver is. That region of the US is much more arid than any populated place in Canada really is, which is to your comment about the rivers - the South Platte just doesn't really gush with water.

Calgary is on the border of the semi-arid climate Koppen Climate type, with the eastern part of the metropolitan area in that classification. Yes of course Denver is more arid. That's the "essentially" part in "essentially identical"... since they're close enough that one wouldn't notice a difference.

[softee]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

For St. John's, I really don't know. We're not big enough to compare to any of the American cities people would know, though we have traits in common with lots of them.

Every city in North America has an old town, an upper class area, a lower class area, specific commercial districts, etc. What differentiates them is the size of each, and its relative influence on the general city culture. People who work in Finance occupy a bigger percentage of the culture in cities like Toronto, New York, London, for example. We have people in those jobs here, not enough that it has any impact on the city's culture, daily life.

That's sort of my mindset in looking at things. What St. John's does, well beyond its size, is social stratification. Not only do we have a lower class, like everywhere else, we have one that's a HUGE percentage of the city's geography and population, we have one that has its own accent and culture and is hard to get out of. You don't usually get that in cities our size unless race is involved (here it of course isn't).

So you have to blend picturesque tourist town, with downtrodden former industrial town, with dirty port city, with hipster/arts/culture mecca, with obsessed with live music, with colourful buildings, on and on. The ratios are, I think, pretty unique here for a North American city.

So nothing American really jumps out, beyond token, superficial picks like Boston for the Irish emphasis, random PA towns for the architecture.

But if you go deeper, to how most residents of a city live, to how most residents of a city feel about it... I suspect Baltimore is probably the best bet.

- Residents are pissed off about almost everything, but love it.
- They can complain, you can't.
- Rowhouses, segregation, music.

On and on. I think it's the deepest fit, even if it's not at all accurate on the surface.

This could EASILY be set in St. John's:

• Video Link

I'm pretty sure that movie and that clip was actually shot in Toronto.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

For St. John's, I really don't know. We're not big enough to compare to any of the American cities people would know, though we have traits in common with lots of them.

...

I was thinking San Juan, Puerto Rico might be an apt comparison, even if just in theory and name.

https://goo.gl/maps/rNEn2teSjRbfvoCm8

[shappy]

Originally Posted by brightlite

With few exceptions, I think there are more cities in the US that better approximate a metropolitan British/European experience than there are Canadian cities that do. A lot of this has to do with population and age. The US was wealthier and more populated well before Canada was, and it's pre-war architectural stock, city to city, is more robust than Canada's is (no, that doesn't mean every city - we know Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, etc, are more bland and modern).

The US urbanized and suburbanized much earlier, and when it built suburbs out from each city's respective core, there was often housing developed around historic main streets and former "small towns".

That gives a lot of suburbs, towns, and populated places in the United States a much more aesthetic, walkable vibe with a more robust "main street" culture - similar to the British high street.

Canada has a handful of aesthetic outer suburbs and towns, but outside of a few eastern cities like Montreal and Quebec City, Canada simply didn't develop early enough to have the same kind of main street culture - I'm thinking of outer suburbs like Hinsdale, Illinois, which is aesthetic and historic, has only about 17,000 people, has access to downtown Chicago via Metra, and has all sorts of small businesses and national chains along it's main street, including some home grown and international luxury labels - Yves Delorme, for the latter. You have tons of suburbs like this around Chicago - Elmhurst, LaGrange, Downer's Grove, Clarendon Hills, Naperville, Geneva, St. Charles, Western Springs, Westmont...I struggle to think of any Canadian city that has such robust main street activity a great distance from the downtown area as a vast array of American cities do. Again, I'm thinking history and the comparatively scant population has something to do with it.

For the record, the Toronto area and Southern Ontario in general is by no means a stranger to this type of development.

Brampton
https://goo.gl/maps/oR9ZW2xQnpgPmS5b8

Port Perry
https://goo.gl/maps/BDN4UJZxdhkzX1vY6

Whitby
https://goo.gl/maps/EFY8GNA7uPhUgXFn8

Unionville
https://goo.gl/maps/b6JjESRe8bY6EuhX8

Oakville
https://goo.gl/maps/3Dj5hsqcuZiMCMs26

Burlington
https://goo.gl/maps/gJjuwJC7StoXnARS9

Milton
https://goo.gl/maps/hFQysLjCR54bmdm49

Mississauga
https://goo.gl/maps/8LNuxb1HyrkcYiJk9

Newmarket
https://goo.gl/maps/Pz7JJ374gRycy9Cq6
And apparently Newmarket has a pretty good pride parade...
https://goo.gl/maps/wPmH2DFaHRcqBBuP8

Oshawa
https://goo.gl/maps/xpKbU7ioy2AtKqEh9

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by someone123

But these days it's possible Halifax has more construction cranes up than Boston......The Big Dig does not look so good in the rear view mirror.....

This does not change that Boston is the much bigger and wealthier city but it's becoming less and less influential in the Maritimes over time.

The Big Dig was paramount to stitching downtown Boston back to the waterfront. The Greenway park where the highway used to stand is well used, especially in warmer months. It was a long, bumpy road but the end result is a resounding success.

Also, below are Boston's Top 12 built or U/C since 2016. Overall if you follow the link there's more than 50 buildings over 200' and it's missing 3-4 in Somerville. Basically, since 2016 it has added the equivalent of an entire skyline like New Orleans or Detroit, and shows no signs of stopping soon. In 2019 Kearney rated it 21st in its Global City Index and 7th in Global City Outlook. You are spectacularly misinformed with your Boston assertions.
https://www.kearney.at/web/guest/global-cities/2019

Boston Top 12 Since 2016 by David Z, on Flickr

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=92560473

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by softee

I'm pretty sure that movie and that clip was actually shot in Toronto.

The opening shot is Baltimore, the rest is Toronto.

[Loco101]

St. John's is much nicer than Baltimore. Much much nicer! I've been to both places. They aren't similar.

[905er]

the only obvious counterparts for me are

Toronto - New York (although I hate this comparison)
Vancouver - Seattle
Calgary - Denver

but I mostly don't care for these comparisons myself.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Loco101

St. John's is much nicer than Baltimore. Much much nicer! I've been to both places. They aren't similar.

I think the similiarities may still be present though, in terms of the housing typology and some other aspects of the civic culture, as SignalHillHiker suggests. (One huge difference here would be that Baltimore is a largely black city. That makes Baltimore culturally and socially distinctive, compared to the larger culture, in a way St. John's isn't.)

To draw comparisons between American and Canadian cities means grappling with a few constants:

1. Often, an urban-suburban-rural racial divide that's way more pronounced in the US.

2. For the most part, American cities will have developed along much grander and larger lines. Halifax-Boston is a great example. There are a lot of historical parallels and a lot of similarities, but the scale is obviously very different. And whereas Halifax has flashes of grandeur, Boston is thick with that.

Any Toronto comparison would be similar, whether it's to NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. The American counterparts outpace Toronto in every way when it comes to their historical built environment.

3. But paradoxically, American cities will also have blight on a scale unusual in Canada. That's apparent when comparing Toronto to Philly or Chicago or even outer-borough NYC.

The Baltimore - St. John's comparison is also an example. St. John's is clearly nicer than Baltimore, but the comparisons between the two (smaller, working-class, provincial cities with deep civic pride, characterized by old-school rowhousing and tight-knit neighbourhoods) still stand. Baltimore is in rougher shape, but you kind of have to give it a handicap to correct for the urban decay that's simply more common in that country.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Doady

Toronto: Los Angeles of the North by Wendell Cox

Toronto is Queens mixed with splatters of Philly, Montreal and Miami, surrounded by a giant Orange County and Inland Empire.

Oakville is comparable to Newport Beach in its overall feel and wealthy demographics but the southern portion physically has more of an eastcoast typology like Lake Forest Illinois or somthing. Then again you could also argue Port Credit is more akin to Newport Beach than Oakville.

[JHikka]

Sorry but i'm absolutely not getting St. John's = Baltimore.