[Moncton] Old Moncton High School Redevelopment (under construction)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Patapouf26

Outrageous indeed! Now we can only put our trust in our elected officials. I have confidence in our city council, but I'm wondering about provincial officials. I have a feeling that they want to get rid of the property asap and with as little cost as possible. If so, will they force a decision on the city?

Indeed - this is provincial property therefore ultimately this is a provincial decision. This lack of transparency over the process makes one wonder what sort of back room shenanigans are going on with regard to this process.

I doubt that the province really has the best interests of the city at heart regarding this process (we've seen this before when they located the new MHS within spitting distance of city limits). Bird/Terra will likely be the cheaper proponent. Regardless of the merits of MH35, the city will likely be saddled with Bird/Terra whether they want it or not.......

[L'homard]

I think you guys have it exactly backwards.
It seems relatively clear to me it is the majority of city council that want to tear down the school and replace it with a parking lot and mystery buildnig, rumoured to be a police station of all things. IF not, why do they continue to support, on paper at least, the Terra-Bird proposal?
The T-B plan is NOT cheaper. The province knows this. The T-B proposal dumps the costs of fixing and maintaining the gym and auditorium on taxpayers for ever and ever, amen.
The MH35 proposal requires a one-time government cheque, after which their organization will assume all costs, for ever and ever amen.
I don't believe the province wants to be seen as dumping a costly auditorium and gym on city taxpayers in perpetuity, when they can instead offer one-time support to saving the entire building which will then be self-sustaining, including the auditorium and gym space.
I guess we'll find out eventually - unlike the details of the T-B proposal, which will only be known if they are given a free school. Contrast this with MH35 which has been up-front and above board at all times with their plans and financial details.

[Patapouf26]

From the mayor's FB page : "We then had some by-law readings and voted on a resolution to remove the Terra Trust/Bird Construction proposal for the old MHS. This failed." A comment below her post indicate that the vote was 6-3 against... So, this means a strong majority of council still want to keep this proposal as an option.

A reply to another comment regarding a letter from Terra/Bird to Council :

"We understand and appreciate the public expectations around preserving the architectural significance
of the building and providing options for the continued operation of the auditorium and gymnasium and can assure you that we have taken this into consideration; however, we are certain that you and other members of Council will understand the importance of respecting the confidentiality clauses inherent in contractual negotiations.

Should our proposal be accepted by the provincial government, we will most certainly come before Council in a public session to present our plans for the redevelopment of the property. As you know, we have undertaken a variety of investment projects in the community, and we look forward to continuing
to enhance our portfolio as we believe Moncton is a great place to do business and is poised for continued growth."

My question: Why does this proposal need to be veiled? I'd like to stay positive and think that this project could be amazing and they want the secrecy so that another developer couldn't drop a similar proposal for less $. What do you think?

Source

[L'homard]

Well, I'm not a genius at these things but the grey hairs on my head indicate I have plenty of experience, and my past experiences tell me when someone has something to hide, it's not usually for a good reason.
I can understand the competitive nature of these things, but find it odd that MH35 has no problem putting ALL of their details on the table while their competitor puts out NONE of the details of their proposal. So I'm not convinced that competition is the reason for their guarded approach.
I do hope we find out one way or the other soon though. Getting tired of seeing this football being kicked back and forth and I'm sure I'm not alone.

[Patapouf26]

Originally Posted by L'homard

Well, I'm not a genius at these things but the grey hairs on my head indicate I have plenty of experience, and my past experiences tell me when someone has something to hide, it's not usually for a good reason.
I can understand the competitive nature of these things, but find it odd that MH35 has no problem putting ALL of their details on the table while their competitor puts out NONE of the details of their proposal. So I'm not convinced that competition is the reason for their guarded approach.
I do hope we find out one way or the other soon though. Getting tired of seeing this football being kicked back and forth and I'm sure I'm not alone.

You're probably right. The only that has me intrigued, is the vote count to keep this proposal on the table.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Patapouf26

The only that has me intrigued, is the vote count to keep this proposal on the table.

Lots of politics at play behind the scenes, with lots of parties with competing agendas. The biggest bugaboo is likely the plan to relocate the library. There are some on council who are so adamantly opposed to this possibility that they would accept almost any fate for MHS to prevent this from happening........

[L'homard]

Many of council's votes are split along the same lines, on various issues (but not all issues.) Seems like two separate camps formed at about the time a number of them voted to give themselves obscenely high pay raises.

Re the library, to be clear, MH35 has said for many many months now that they can make their proposal work without putting the library there. They have said this many times.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by L'homard

Many of council's votes are split along the same lines, on various issues (but not all issues.) Seems like two separate camps formed at about the time a number of them voted to give themselves obscenely high pay raises.

Indeed - the loyal (?) opposition is (I believe) councilors Crossman, Boudreau and Butler.

[Patapouf26]

Well, you guys have said it. According to an article on CBC, Council member Crossman has spilled a few details, namely : "I know for certain that there is no plan to save the theatre or the gym," he said on Information Morning Moncton."

The article also mentions :

Terra Trust/Bird could not be reached for a comment but in its letter said that the province is close to making a decision.

The Department of Transportation said it has, "toured the building with 25 different groups, but cannot disclose the names of prospective buyers."

The government did not confirm when it would come to a decision.

Ultimately, who decides what's going to happen? Had Crossman's vote passed, would this have limited the province's options? 25 different groups, while the city only talks of two?

Article

[MonctonRad]

It's the provinces decision alone. The city has no say. To be fair though, the Liberal government is well aware of the political importance of this decision and Speaker Chris Collins has been a strong proponent in favour of appropriate redevelopment.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by Patapouf26

Well, you guys have said it. According to an article on CBC, Council member Crossman has spilled a few details, namely : "I know for certain that there is no plan to save the theatre or the gym," he said on Information Morning Moncton."

The article also mentions :Ultimately, who decides what's going to happen? Had Crossman's vote passed, would this have limited the province's options? 25 different groups, while the city only talks of two?

Article

The city only spoke of two because the belief was that anyone else got scared off by the demands of a group, and the cities push to keep the building also MH35's quick draw tactics of Drawing in the public Library into there plans without speaking to anyone from the library first, and that little mess it caused. I guess most of them no longer wanted there interest in the land publicized. I don't blame developers but at the same time trying to get plans approved that would mean loosing the historic building, and trying to keep it quiet seems to be underhanded (Terra/Birds "Bid").

I would also like to point out the speaker Chris Collins may not be telling the truth on the Terra/Bird plans front, and might be saying there plans are to save nothing to then push his own agenda.

[L'homard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed - the loyal (?) opposition is (I believe) councilors Crossman, Boudreau and Butler.

Not sure about Boudreau (I don't pay a ton of attention honestly.) But you have forgotten Coun. Paul Pellerin.

[L'homard]

Originally Posted by Scarface

The city only spoke of two because the belief was that anyone else got scared off by the demands of a group, and the cities push to keep the building also MH35's quick draw tactics of Drawing in the public Library into there plans without speaking to anyone from the library first, and that little mess it caused. I guess most of them no longer wanted there interest in the land publicized. I don't blame developers but at the same time trying to get plans approved that would mean loosing the historic building, and trying to keep it quiet seems to be underhanded (Terra/Birds "Bid").

I would also like to point out the speaker Chris Collins may not be telling the truth on the Terra/Bird plans front, and might be saying there plans are to save nothing to then push his own agenda.

Hmmm I don't see any agenda by Speaker Collins, who is the MLA for the school area. He has said time and again, upfront and openly, that he favours MH35's bid because he believes it's the best proposal for saving the entire building, the least expensive proposal, and that it's the proposal that is favoured by the people in the riding he represents. He has said this on TV, in newspring and on the radio, repeatedly.
I don't know how the MH35 agenda is "his own agenda." Do those who favour the secret bid also have their "own agenda," or just the MH35 backers? Not trying to start a debate - just trying to understand what you mean.
As well, what are you accusing Speaker Collins of "not telling the truth" about? I've never read or heard him say anything of any substance about Terra-Bird's proposal, other than he prefers MH35's bid. What was it that he said that you don't believe?

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by L'homard

Hmmm I don't see any agenda by Speaker Collins, who is the MLA for the school area. He has said time and again, upfront and openly, that he favours MH35's bid because he believes it's the best proposal for saving the entire building, the least expensive proposal, and that it's the proposal that is favoured by the people in the riding he represents. He has said this on TV, in newspring and on the radio, repeatedly.
I don't know how the MH35 agenda is "his own agenda." Do those who favour the secret bid also have their "own agenda," or just the MH35 backers? Not trying to start a debate - just trying to understand what you mean.
As well, what are you accusing Speaker Collins of "not telling the truth" about? I've never read or heard him say anything of any substance about Terra-Bird's proposal, other than he prefers MH35's bid. What was it that he said that you don't believe?

Should have chosen my words more carefully. If Memory serves me right MLA Collins is the one who said the Bird/Terra Bid did not save the Gym, and/or Auditorium. If this is true. Then it would be troubling. But it may not be true at all that the Bird/Terra plans are to get rid of everything.

Yes I know everyone in this seems to have an agenda. I tend not to trust anyone be they a developer, Business man, or MLA. I am trying to look at everything with an open mind. That's all I'm saying.

[MonctonRad]

CONFIRMED:


Mystery proposal unveiled: Old Moncton High would become new RCMP station
The CBC has learned Terra Trust/Bird Construction proposal calls for moving RCMP to former school
By Tori Weldon, CBC News Posted: Jun 13, 2017 7:00 AM AT|
Last Updated: Jun 13, 2017 7:23 AM AT
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...bird-1.4157317

The CBC has learned the Terra Trust/Bird Construction proposal is to redevelop the former Moncton High property into the new Codiac RCMP headquarters.


Unnamed sources have confirmed that Terra Trust/Bird Construction presented a model to council with the RCMP logo on one building. Sources say there is a second building on the site in the proposal, but details about the RCMP headquarters were vague.


The developer has remained close-mouthed, despite numerous attempts by the public and councillors to make the plans public.

So, two buildings on the site, one with an RCMP logo.

This can only mean wholesale demolition of the old MHS and the loss of the auditorium and the gymnasium. Is this what the citizenry really wants? It may be time for concerned citizens to begin speaking up.

It'll be interesting to see if Bird/Terra now becomes a little more forthcoming regarding their plans for the site. In any event, there doesn't appear to be any value to them in maintaining ongoing secrecy. C'mon Bird/Terra, let's see your plans and let's see if there is broad public support for your proposal........

[L'homard]

Originally Posted by Scarface

Should have chosen my words more carefully. If Memory serves me right MLA Collins is the one who said the Bird/Terra Bid did not save the Gym, and/or Auditorium.

This is true. The MH35 proposal produces annual rent revenues that will pay for the gym/auditorium forever.
The Terra-Bird bid "saves" it, I suppose, but all it does is hand over the gym and auditorium to the city for taxpayers to pay for, for ever and ever, in perpetuity, milions and millions of dollars, forever.
The MH35 bid requires a one-time provincial contribution. The T-B one hands taxpayers a very expensive bill every year, forever.
This is my understanding of both proposals. I am open to other arguments, always.

[MonctonRad]

So, are you saying that Bird/Terra doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of the auditorium & gymnasium, and that the option exists for the city to take over this part of the building if it so chooses? I was under the assumption that this part of the building would meet the wrecking ball......

Regardless, the province may end up screwing the city yet again.

The first time was when they built the new MHS out in the boondocks necessitating millions of dollars in infrastructure spending to support the new facility

The second time will be this - support for the Bird/Terra proposal which would mean that the only way to save the auditorium would be an annual grant from the city for operating costs and maintenance.

The taxpayers of the city of Moncton thank you Mr. Gallant.........

[L'homard]

It was the Tories who pulled the bone-headed move to build a new MHS out in the forest.
My hope is that Gallant will give MH35 its one time $$$ (I forget home much) and then be done with it.
Otherwise, Moncton taxpayers will be on the hook every year to fund Terra-Bird's so-called "free" gym and auditorium.

[MonctonRad]

Bird/Terra must be feeling the heat.

There is an op-ed in the T&T today by the CEO of Terra explaining the restrictions that they are under with regard to releasing information about their proposal (especially WRT provincial rules since this is a provincial tendering process). I understand all this.

Furthermore, the CEO goes on to state:
1) - that the architectural integrity of MHS would be maintained
2) - that they do indeed have a plan for the auditorium & gymnasium (although specifics are lacking).

So, I guess we'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt for now, but it remains frustrating for the public to try and compare the benefits of their RCMP proposal and the well fleshed out MH35 proposal.

Bird/Terra should release their proposal at the first opportune time so that the public can give their informed opinions to the provincial government regarding the future of the old MHS site.

[Monctoncore]

I just don't like the idea of the RCMP moving that far.. it would be much better placed near the courthouse and it would also give assumption a better street front presence that it currently lacks.