[Dartmouth] The Avery | ? m | 5 fl | Completed

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The second building at King's Wharf, The Anchorage, had very poor sales.
The developer has a very nice 2 page inside cover colour spread in a local magazine and shows the Keelson as 100% sold, the Anchorage as 85% occupied and the Aqua Vista as 80%sold. Notice the difference in the wording.

I'm not even going to continue trying to explain myself. Google supply and demand. Who cares what the level of sales are when you aren't the one who is baring the risk. The market clearing prices would still be high, even if developers had to do massive price cuts.

The stance you appears to be that because condos are selling slowly that you are personally losing out in some way?

None of this is a justification for building squat buildings which contribute to sprawling outwards and do little to support downtown businesses that require foot traffic. Its real economics, especially in a city with the worst public transportation imaginable for its large footprint and disconnected areas (largely due to the promotion of the type of development you seem to support).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I'm starting to think doom and gloom is a local cultural quirk in Halifax; the assumption is always that everything is going to hell unless otherwise demonstrated.

Yikes! Don't base your opinion of Haligonians (and Dartmouthians) on a couple of negative posters on SSP or from what you read in the paper. Internet messageboards seem to draw some people who would look at the coming of Christ as a negative event. The newspapers sell sensationalism - so take them with a grain of salt - strain out what facts they may contain and throw the opinions out with the trash.

I grew up in Downtown Dartmouth, so even though I don't live there anymore I take particular interest in developments happening there. From my perspective, DTD is definitely on the upswing, but it would be irrational to expect it to happen overnight. I see a lot of growth has happened over the past 10 - 15 years. I see neighborhoods that I felt nervous walking in 30 years ago that have now been turned around and are still continually being fixed up. They are well on their way to becoming vibrant communities again.

Halifax the same. Cripes, I remember 30 years ago an "interesting" activity for young high-school-aged chaps was to drive down Hollis Street and count the hookers (yeah, there was less to do back then... lol). Not to paint too seedy a picture, but the whole downtown area has cleaned up significantly since then. Now, count the damn cranes... there is a lot of development going on... probably as much in the past 3 years as there was in the previous 20!

So please, don't let the views of the few make you draw conclusions for the many... just because the positive people aren't always voicing their opinions doesn't mean they don't have opinions.

Sorry, but all the G-D negativity on this board from a few posters gets to a fellah now and then.... just had to get that off my chest.

Now, I'll step down and give the mic back to the real contributors of this board.

[teddifax]

Here, here!!!

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I'm not even going to continue trying to explain myself. Google supply and demand. Who cares what the level of sales are when you aren't the one who is baring the risk. The market clearing prices would still be high, even if developers had to do massive price cuts.

The stance you appears to be that because condos are selling slowly that you are personally losing out in some way?

None of this is a justification for building squat buildings which contribute to sprawling outwards and do little to support downtown businesses that require foot traffic. Its real economics, especially in a city with the worst public transportation imaginable for its large footprint and disconnected areas (largely due to the promotion of the type of development you seem to support).

I live downtown Dartmouth, I don't know where you live and I don't think you have in depth knowledge of the area. Squat buildings don't contribute to sprawl. I have not said I am ' losing out in some way' nor can any reasonable person with a grasp of the English language infer such a thing.
I bank online and rarely spend money downtown other than a haircut, a meal at Celtic Corner, flowers at Janet's and a prescription at Lawtons. I don't use the tattoo shops, the gambling machine bars, the pawn shop, the financial adviser or any other small business. I frequently walk past the Victoria Road slums on the right side of the road which stand in stark contrast to the well kept properties on the opposite side of the block, and walk past the decrepit buildings on the Portland Street block between King and Victoria.
Tall buildings will not remedy what ails the downtown nor will a version of Hbd when developers have many other areas in metro to build upon. The City of Dartmouth and now HRM have never had a focused plan for downtown Dartmouth and RP+5 will not have such a plan.
I suggest you read CMHC reports to gain an understanding of the reality of the housing market in Halifax and then read the RP+5 report to understand where future development will take place 'as of right' without adoption of RP+5.
The 'disconnected areas' you refer to are the result of 4 seperate municipalities seeking tax revenue and anyone who has lived here for more than a year or two understands that. Yes, HRM does have a large footprint : probably the largest municipality in the world when measured by area.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The developer has a very nice 2 page inside cover colour spread in a local magazine and shows the Keelson as 100% sold, the Anchorage as 85% occupied and the Aqua Vista as 80%sold. Notice the difference in the wording.

I think this is because the Anchorage has rental units, which would be occupied, not sold.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I bank online and rarely spend money downtown other than a haircut, a meal at Celtic Corner, flowers at Janet's and a prescription at Lawtons. I don't use the tattoo shops, the gambling machine bars, the pawn shop, the financial adviser or any other small business.

I think the argument is that with more housing units available, there will be new residents who collectively would provide a market for more types of businesses, which logically would set up shop in DT Dartmouth to take advantage of this. Maybe some of these businesses would be ones that you would use.

I suggest you read CMHC reports to gain an understanding of the reality of the housing market in Halifax and then read the RP+5 report to understand where future development will take place 'as of right' without adoption of RP+5.

I'm not sure what you mean here regarding RP+5. Are you assuming that it won't be adopted? Downtown Dartmouth is definitely considered an important area within the HRM planning regime (part of the urban core, along with DT Hali). The (admittedly delayed) Centre Plan deals with many specific sites throughout Dartmouth. You also brought up the Dartmouth Cove and other DT Dartmouth WDC projects so I'm not sure how you can argue that development/planning interest has been lacking in the area. I agree with others that clear design guidelines like HRMBD would probably increase the rate of change in Dartmouth.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think this is because the Anchorage has rental units, which would be occupied, not sold.

It is a registered condominium. I'll be posting more information in several days.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I bank online and rarely spend money downtown other than a haircut, a meal at Celtic Corner, flowers at Janet's and a prescription at Lawtons. I don't use the tattoo shops, the gambling machine bars, the pawn shop, the financial adviser or any other small business. I frequently walk past the Victoria Road slums on the right side of the road which stand in stark contrast to the well kept properties on the opposite side of the block, and walk past the decrepit buildings on the Portland Street block between King and Victoria.
Tall buildings will not remedy what ails the downtown nor will a version of Hbd when developers have many other areas in metro to build upon. The City of Dartmouth and now HRM have never had a focused plan for downtown Dartmouth and RP+5 will not have such a plan.

To some degree, downtown Dartmouth will change even without any concerted plan on the city's part, just due to the way the real-estate market has gone. Mixed-use, urban communities are more increasingly popular with younger and more affluent people, and there are only so many of those neighbourhoods to go around, so a place like Dartmouth is going to gentrify and densify no matter what the city does or doesn't do. Good government policy can help, but I think we over-estimate how much power it has in the short term.

As far as tall buildings go, I'm agnostic. Downtown Dartmouth can revive with or without them. They're not necessary to urban revitalization--but they're also not antithetical. Overall, if the market is too slow to support them, I'd rather see infill now than wait years for towers. And back to my first point, the area will change to some degree anyway, even if not a single new housing unit is built, just due to demographic changes.

(Incidentally, I'd definitely dispute that Portland Street looks decrepit--it's definitely pretty no-frills, with lots of vinyl siding and low-end businesses, but it's not what true decrepitude looks like. It's what a neighbourhood on the cusp of gentrification looks like.)

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think the argument is that with more housing units available, there will be new residents who collectively would provide a market for more types of businesses, which logically would set up shop in DT Dartmouth to take advantage of this. Maybe some of these businesses would be ones that you would use.



I'm not sure what you mean here regarding RP+5. Are you assuming that it won't be adopted? Downtown Dartmouth is definitely considered an important area within the HRM planning regime (part of the urban core, along with DT Hali). The (admittedly delayed) Centre Plan deals with many specific sites throughout Dartmouth. You also brought up the Dartmouth Cove and other DT Dartmouth WDC projects so I'm not sure how you can argue that development/planning interest has been lacking in the area. I agree with others that clear design guidelines like HRMBD would probably increase the rate of change in Dartmouth.

.

Here is an extract from RP+5 as part of a staff response to CDAC concerns re RP+5 http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/d...31203cow3i.pdf

Scroll down to Attachment 'A' Inventory of Suburban Serviceable Lands. The map shows 'Active Subdivisions or Planning Applications 2013' within the transit boundary and within the Urban Settlement designation, excluding the Regional Centre. The total dwelling units is 31,000.
Read the first 3 pages of the report :

: " According to Statistics Canada census data, the number of households in HRM grew by 10,015 from 2006 to 2011 – an average of 2,003 per year. If this growth rate was assumed to continue in the future and 50% of this growth was assigned to the suburbs (1,003 households per year), the available supply would be estimated to last 33 to 42 years without any consideration given to the potential for redevelopment, infilling or auxiliary dwelling units. Staff
applied a more conservative estimate of 1,200 dwelling units per year in the suburbs based on a previous projection undertaken for HRM by Altus in 2009. Stantec (see Table 1 of the draft Regional Plan) projects a significant increase in growth in dwelling units between 2016 and 2021"

Another map,Attachment D, shows 3,036 grandfathered lots in rural areas.

My point is quite simple : revitalizing downtown Dartmouth under existing plans, and RP+5 and HRM legislation will be difficult. The council is split and there is no willingness to encourage regional centre growth by restricting development beyond the regional centre. There are only 5 councillors within the regional centre.
RP+5 is not bold.

[Colin May]

@Drybrain : " (Incidentally, I'd definitely dispute that Portland Street looks decrepit--it's definitely pretty no-frills, with lots of vinyl siding and low-end businesses, but it's not what true decrepitude looks like. It's what a neighbourhood on the cusp of gentrification looks like.).
It's not Detroit decrepit, but go behind the buildings on the King to Dundas portion and walk around the rear looking closely at the foundations and the finish. I know which buildings I would like to bulldoze. HRM should buy up the properties and then call for development proposals after deciding what they want the street to be, instead of sitting back fiddling around with zoning and waiting for developers to step forward. We don't have planners, we have application approvers. There is no vision.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

It's not Detroit decrepit, but go behind the buildings on the King to Dundas portion and walk around the rear looking closely at the foundations and the finish. I know which buildings I would like to bulldoze. HRM should buy up the properties and then call for development proposals after deciding what they want the street to be, instead of sitting back fiddling around with zoning and waiting for developers to step forward. We don't have planners, we have application approvers. There is no vision.

Are you proposing the city take blocks worth of buildings and businesses out of the local market and put out redevelopment RFPs because of some foundation-repair problems?

If so, that's some serious Robert Moses master-planning there. That would really be sort of a disaster—the businesses that are there would clear out, and new, small businesses, facing uncertainty over the future, wouldn't come in to renovate and re-occupy the old spaces. (Which is exactly how organic, piecemeal neighbourhood revitalization happens. And is happening now, slowly. In just the past six months, the two storefronts at 127 Portland have changed hands, being converted from a divey old-man bar and a run-down laundromat into an art gallery and a hipstery housewares shop, respectively).

Portland is the kind of street that needs exactly this turnover of existing building stock, complemented by well-scaled infill--and hopefully when its viable economically, some larger scale stuff down on the waterfront parking lots and other sites--in order to bring in a fresh set of tenants and businesses.

It doesn't need the equivalent of a mid-century slum clearance and a massive-scaled new development, if that's what you're suggesting. That doesn't work, for a lot of reasons, not least of all basic urban economics: New construction tends to be prohibitively costly for independent tenants, and Dartmouth is certainly not going to suddenly attract a few dozen national chain retailers.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Colin May

It is a registered condominium. I'll be posting more information in several days.

I'm sure that they're not all condos though. Maybe the Keelson is rentals then, or maybe the Anchorage is half rental half condos. They were definitely advertizing apartments on their website before both finished buildings were "occupied".

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I bank online and rarely spend money downtown other than a haircut, a meal at Celtic Corner, flowers at Janet's and a prescription at Lawtons. I don't use the tattoo shops, the gambling machine bars, the pawn shop, the financial adviser or any other small business.

You don't support your local businesses? You paint a picture of a seedy area with tattoo shops, "gambling machine bars" (I assume you are simply referring to bars that have gambling machines in them), a pawn shop... what about the other great businesses in the area? Why not mention them? Why not support them?

Celtic Corner is a great place to have a drink and a meal, but there are many others that you are failing to mention. Just to give a few examples:

http://www.carolinesbakery.ca/

http://www.thewoodenmonkey.ca/

https://www.facebook.com/mabellescafe

http://www.nectardining.com/

http://twoifbyseacafe.ca/

http://www.justuscoffee.com/location...harf-dartmouth

These are all very good quality establishments within 5-10 minutes walk of one another, which serve the local community and offer a range of food/drinks to suit many tastes/requirements. Several of these have just arrived within the past five years and appear to have good business every time I have been there.

There are others that I have not mentioned because I haven't tried them yet but plan to in the near future. Not to mention the farmer's market which happens every weekend at Alderney Landing:

http://www.alderneylanding.com/market/

There are also a number of good local businesses on the lower end of Portland Street which I haven't mentioned. Not just bars and pawn shops and tattoo parlours (which are now more mainstream than they would have been considered 30 years ago, btw).

I know this is getting a little off topic (which seems to be my specialty lately), but my suggestion is, if you really care about downtown Dartmouth start by supporting the local establishments, as each step towards supporting good local businesses is a step towards a revitalized neighborhood.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I'm sure that they're not all condos though. Maybe the Keelson is rentals then, or maybe the Anchorage is half rental half condos. They were definitely advertizing apartments on their website before both finished buildings were "occupied".

The Anchorage is a registered condominium and all the units were sold. I have a list of all the owners. It's complicated.

[Phalanx]

Actually, there are a handful of rentals at the Anchorage:
http://kingswharf.ca/index.php/rent/the-anchorage

Only 2-3 apartments listed at the moment, but I don't know that they list rented apartments.

http://kingswharf.ca/index.php/own/the-anchorage
This seems to indicate that all but 6-7 condos are sold.

[kph06]

Live stream is running now:

Live Stream

The fact that the Anchorage is part condo, part rental doesn't seem too out of the ordinary, I think the same thing is happening with St. Lawrence Place. I assumed the developer (or partners) have bought remaining units to achieve condo status for the building - the units are rented and gradually sold off as the market can absorb them. Then again, I'm not a real estate agent or developer, so who knows!

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The Anchorage is a registered condominium and all the units were sold. I have a list of all the owners. It's complicated.

Why do you have such a list? I'm intrigued.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Your join date is March 2014. Maybe you lack the intelligence in using your real name.

I know many of the people on this forum and, quite frankly, you've added nothing to the discussion aside from negativity... which others have indicated.

Offering us CMHC statistics and making spurious connections between why we should build squat buildings is not valuable, especially on an urbanist forum.

I'm not going to address your comments further.

You wrote yesterday at 8pm " Also, you basically said you don't support tons of local businesses and made sweeping characterizations. "

Where are there 'tons of businesses ' in downtown Dartmouth ?
How many is 'tons' ?
The shoe shop, Hiltz', closed over 25 years ago - can't buy shoes downtown now
The photo supply store closed a decade ago - can't buy photo supplies downtown now
I bought LPs at Nieforth about 40 years ago - can't buy music downtown now
The small grocery store on Alderney Drive closed over 20 years ago - can't buy groceries downtown now
Fishers closed - I was a regular customer for many years when buying packaging to ship small parcels around the world and then Canada Post drove the costs through the roof and Mrs Fisher and Canada Post lost me and several other customers. The nearest replacement is Basin in Halifax.
Can't buy mens clothes downtown.
And here is some good news, it is 20 years since the community came together to stop renewal of the entertainment licence at the drug haven known as Portland Landing.
There are no 'sweeping characterizations', but there are accurate descriptions. And since when have statistics culled from audited HRM financial statements, HRM planning documents and CMHC been classed as 'negativity' ?
Do you dislike facts or just choose to ignore them ?

[xanaxanax]

..

[mcmcclassic]

Originally Posted by Colin May

You wrote yesterday at 8pm " Also, you basically said you don't support tons of local businesses and made sweeping characterizations. "

Where are there 'tons of businesses ' in downtown Dartmouth ?
How many is 'tons' ?
The shoe shop, Hiltz', closed over 25 years ago - can't buy shoes downtown now
The photo supply store closed a decade ago - can't buy photo supplies downtown now
I bought LPs at Nieforth about 40 years ago - can't buy music downtown now
The small grocery store on Alderney Drive closed over 20 years ago - can't buy groceries downtown now
Fishers closed - I was a regular customer for many years when buying packaging to ship small parcels around the world and then Canada Post drove the costs through the roof and Mrs Fisher and Canada Post lost me and several other customers. The nearest replacement is Basin in Halifax.
Can't buy mens clothes downtown.
And here is some good news, it is 20 years since the community came together to stop renewal of the entertainment licence at the drug haven known as Portland Landing.
There are no 'sweeping characterizations', but there are accurate descriptions. And since when have statistics culled from audited HRM financial statements, HRM planning documents and CMHC been classed as 'negativity' ?
Do you dislike facts or just choose to ignore them ?

It's this kind of attitude that keeps Halifax, and Nova Scotia in the dark ages...

We can beat statistics to death, but as others have pointed out there are actual good businesses in Downtown Dartmouth. Sure there is no grocery store right downtown, but Bremar Dr. Superstore is a 5min drive. Same with the Wyse Rd. Sobeys. Everything else that I can't buy downtown I go to Dartmouth Crossing and Micmac mall (like Haligonians go to Bayer's Lake and Halifax Shopping Center)

I am too young to remember the old downtown Dartmouth, but what I am experiencing now isn't the worst thing ever. I love getting a beer at Celtic, going for coffee at Two if by Sea, and going to the Alderney farmers market on Saturday. If we continue to look at what we can't do, we will never succeed as a region.

As stated many times before, areas don't re-gentrify overnight. It takes time. I can guarantee DT Dartmouth in 10 years will be a lot different (for the good).

*end rant*